I’m in an academically nostalgic mood this morning.
Many years ago, I sat both frustrated and excited through my first Women’s Studies class at Berkeley. I was one of perhaps four men in a class of thirty, and I was (shock of all shocks) among the most vocal. I remember one morning blurting out something like the following:
Why is it that men are always guilty until proven innocent? I know there are some “bad guys” out there, but it is incredibly hurtful to me that women won’t smile at me in the hallways or on the street because they have lumped me in with all the others! I get so tired of paying the price — in terms of women’s mistrust — for other men’s failures and betrayals and bad behavior. Why can’t women see what a good guy I am?
It was the sort of day where everyone was sharing personal stuff. I was 19 and lonely, but I was also eager to “get” feminism because I believed it was my duty to do so. More importantly, I believed that there was something there for me within feminism — something I could learn that would make me a happier person. But so far, all I was feeling was guilty and angry.
I am happy to report that no one verbally attacked me for my outburst. But the women in the class, led by the professor, helped me to see several things I wasn’t able or willing yet to see.
First of all, the obvious point is that women’s intuition, while not entirely the stuff of myth, is not so powerful that it can automatically separate “good guys” from the bad. No woman can walk down the street and as she passes a man, know with certainty that he isn’t a threat. Given the high incidence of rape and assault and harassment and other forms of mistreatment, a woman would be a fool to leave herself continually vulnerable. The old adage “Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me” seems to apply here. When a simple smile is so frequently misunderstood and construed as a sexual invitation, American women generally do have to operate on the assumption that men are guilty until proven innocent. (I blogged on that “guilty until innocent” theme once before, in a different context.)
As I heard this, I acknowledged that I couldn’t ask women to have radar detectors to sense my harmlessness. So, I asked “What can I do? How can I – as a man — help this situation?”
The answers I got have been with me for nigh on eighteen years. The most important thing I can do is hold myself and other men accountable. When I’m hanging with the guys, and one of them cat-calls a girl and I say nothing, I am as guilty as he is. When I’m hanging with the guys, and leering at my classmates in miniskirts, I am part of the problem. It’s not enough for men to be kind and thoughtful with the women in their lives, they must exemplify that kindness and sympathy for women even when they are in an all-male environment. The acid test of a male pro-feminist is how he interacts with other men when there are no women around. Any man can “talk the talk”, and maybe even “walk the walk” in front of his mother, sister, girlfriend, wife. Can he do it with his buddies present? That’s the question. And you can’t be part of the solution until you do that.
I was floored when I heard that, because like so many young men, I was guilty of that “double life.” Sweet and sensitive with women (at least, trying to be sensitive); crass and boorish with my fellow males. I assumed that the closeness with men I desired so much required that I surrender my feminist and egalitarian principles; how else could I bond with guys if we didn’t act like pigs? Isn’t that just what guys do? (Check out a great story on this subject of confronting guys at the splendid XYONLINE site.)
It is not easy to confront other men. To do so is to violate sacred rules of masculinity in our culture, and indeed, as I posted below, to risk the accusation of effeminacy and homosexuality. Actually, for many years in the early 1990s, I only had male friends who were gay for this very reason. They didn’t seem as hung up on masculinity issues as straight guys, and, more importantly, how could a gay man question my masculinity? (That’s a tough one to admit, but heck, it’s God’s truth today.)
I have a number of straight men friends today. I’m having lunch with one in a few minutes, actually. But it’s taken years to “match my language and my life” around other heterosexual men. One huge help in doing so was beginning to work with youth groups. I knew that if I were to work with high school boys, I had to be accountable to God and to the principles I embrace as never before. These boys have helped me enormously on my journey to wholeness.
Now that I teach courses on gender, I often run into fellows in my classes who sound a lot like I did when I was 19. They are angry and frustrated at being “guilty until proven innocent.” I empathize with them publicly, and then I tell them what I was told. I challenge them to do that hard work with other men. Indeed, I tell them over and over again something I believe down to my core:
The single most important thing a man can do if he wants to be a feminist is to practice feminism with other men. If he can do that, he’s well on his way on his journey to justice.
Off to lunch with Steve.
Great post! I know I’m not the only woman is constantly instructed by strange men on the sidewalk to “Smile!” Some stone faces aren’t just hesistation but resentment of having people treat you like you owe them something for no reason whatsoever.
Nice to have found your blog. I am at the GTU in Bereley and an Episcopalian. Love Steve Earle (did you know he has a blog?)
The woman thing was fun my first day at the GTU. I know you know what I mean.
I look forward to reading your blog,
Rick
As a child, I was taught that smiling was polite and showed people how “pretty” I was. I went to a small private University where everyone knew everyone else within a couple of months and smiling was appropriate and safe. When I left that environment, I quickly found that smiling could produce incredibly poor and unwanted results. Shortly after entering the workplace, I was immediately chastised for smiling. Apparently women smile and nod their heads too much. Needless to say, the whole thing is confusing for women as well.
Amanda, I know exactly what you are talking about. What kind of reaction are these men expecting to elicit? Are there women out there that actually comply?
Yes, there are. I’ve accidentally complied a couple of times, since it’s been drilled into me to make nice since I was a kid. There’s no nice, gentle way to put this–some men feel that women owe it to them.
Worse is being told by strangers, “You’d be prettier if you (wore make-up, wore a dress, smiled, cut your hair, grew it long, etc.)” That sort of presumption really blows my mind.
I dissent from the notion that men have to “prove their innocence”. Should the same thinking apply a minority male having to prove that he is not a criminal? Or a RC priest having to prove that he is not a pedophile? Or a woman having to prove that she is not manipulative? Every stereotype has some basis in one’s perceptions, no matter how tenuous. But that link may be so slender that to brand a person with that stereotype is essentially unjust and a form of bigotry. Women must overcome the tendency to “brand” men. If they do not overcome this tendency, not only will men continue to be victimized, but so will the women making these judgements.
BCB & Amanda (and non-smiling women everywhere),
Guys – even ones you or I would call “dumb” guys – aren’t without any smarts or awareness. They operate – at the least – on the same positive and negative feedback that most members of the animal kindgom (including humans) do. The reaction they are trying to elicit is very often the very one that they’ve gotten before.
If every woman responded as you do, they would probably stop acting that way. The problem is that many women *do* respond positively. The same men that make these crude gestures are, more often than not, more likely to have a partner or partners more of the time than those that don’t. This is particularly true in high school and college, but it persists beyond.
So if I, as a guy that is respectful of men and women alike, am to bear the responsibility for those in my gender that are not such, do you bear any responsibility for those in your gender that respond favorably and encourage such behavior?
I am the last person to be rationalizing disrespectful behavior. Since I’m not a partaker, I’ve no reason to. For the last half hour after reading this post I’ve been looking at my closest friends over the years and I can say that I don’t have much to apologize for there, either. I don’t lead a “double life” in this respect.
That said, guys (jerks and non-jerks) don’t make the decisions they do in a vacuum. Many men objectify women; many women act and behave in a way to be objectified. Many men behave boorishly; Many women respond positively to that behavior. Women can say they’re justified in responding to all men as if they were a jerk; Men can treat every woman as if she wants to be with a jerk.
That’ll get us everywhere, won’t it?
You don’t “owe” anyone a smile, but it’s amazing how much more attractive a smile makes someone. I don’t even mean “attractive” in the sense of sexual attractiveness, but in the sense of approachability. Not just women, but men too. If I were to counsel young men, in particular, telling them to smile more would be one of the first lessons.
So don’t smile if you don’t want to smile. Assume that I’m an oogler or potential rapist. No skin off my nose, really. It’s sad to think about all the people that those who wear a defensive or tough expression miss out on meeting. If it’s worth that to you, then by all means. Meanwhile, I’m going to be walking up and talking to that smiling girl beside you and she’s going to be meeting an interesting and entertaining guy.
Guys, there are certain situations in which it doesn’t pay for a woman to be too approachable. I don’t want total strangers to find me approachable when I’m walking down the street. Not because I don’t know that many of them are fine, reasonable, interesting and entertaining guys. But because, face it, I’m alone, on a street, and any man of the sort who might take my smile the wrong way is going to be at least half again as heavy as me, if not twice my weight. And I’ve been hearing for most of my life excuses for sexual harrassment and even rape of the form, “she invited it because she …” was too inviting in some way. I’ve had it drummed into my head that if I dress too sexy, act too friendly, am too careless in where I go when, it’s my fault whatever a man chooses to do to me. Call me defensive and tough, but if you were me, I think you might well feel and do the same.
In other situations, where I’m less at risk, then maybe it’ll suit me to relax and smile and be approachable, and meet all those interesting and entertaining men and women who are now willing to talk to me. But the situations where I want to do that are ones where I feel much safer than “strange man walks up to me on the sidewalk when I’m out on the street by myself.” Ones where there’s at least someone in the vicinity that I could count on to come to my aid if I needed it (other strangers on a sidewalk won’t necessarily do this).
When I’m by myself on a sidewalk, trust me, I don’t want to be attractive, and I don’t want to be approachable. What I want at that point is to be left alone.
I don’t think I treat men in general as guilty until proven innocent; I get along fine with men at work, etc. But I’m sure not going to default to being approachable in all circumstances.
R, I would check that splinter in my eye before calling other people overly defensive.
I don’t like guys who introduce themselves to me by telling me how wonderful I’m about to find out they are, and if not vacantly smiling at everyone who walks by will aid in that goal, so be it.
By the way, there’s “approachable” type smiles and just plain ol’ happy smiles. I’m a smiley person since I’m always amused at something or another. But the smiles that you are instructed to give out on demand are the “approachable” ones. Genuine amusement smiles crinkle up the eyes more.
I’m very reserved with strangers in public, like on a street, and I don’t like some stranger, male or female but mostly male (I’ve noticed men do this more than women), telling me to smile. It makes me feel like it’s my job to make that perfect stranger feel more comfortable in my presence when I (1) want to be left alone, and (2) don’t feel that my facial countenance is anyone’s business but my own. I certainly would never approach a man lost in his own thoughts and demand that he smile. I don’t even make eye contact unless there is a good reason to. I’ve noticed that when I’m asked to smile I didn’t even know this man had been watching me, since I’m busy minding my own business. That’s disconcerting. Why are women expected to put on a pleasant social face to appease other people, as if we are expected to smile at the world and when we don’t, something is wrong with us?
One more point – I wonder how much of the pleasantry is cultural or even regional? I live in a small town in Massachusetts where people tend to be a bit more approachable, probably because everyone here knows each other. The kind of behavior I see here in public would raise eyebrows in Boston.
Leo, the price we pay for not buying into that stereotype is enormous.
Meanwhile, I’m going to be walking up and talking to that smiling girl beside you and she’s going to be meeting an interesting and entertaining guy.
She’s also going to be spending a great deal of time fending off uninteresting and hostile guys who call her a bitch or threaten her when her smiling turns out to be mere friendliness, and not submission or personal interest.
And frankly, I don’t get why you think anyone would be thrilled to meet a guy whose attitude is “Women must be receptive to my social overtures, even if I am a complete stanger, or they’re missing out.”
Trish, you nailed it. The funniest thing about a man coming out of the blue to instruct you to smile is that the assumption is always that you are either angry or sad. When usually, you’re just staring into space.
Wow … I must do something different, because I’ve never, EVER had a man ask me to smile. I live on the West Coast, right now in Southern California, but I grew up in NW Washington, and even spent two years in the deep south of Tennessee…. never has anyone ever asked me to smile. Of course … I do smile at people.
I have to disagree with the feminist majority on this one. I smile at passers-by, whether male or female, because it gives me a bit of an endorphin rush to elicit a smile out of someone else. I make eye contact, give a friendly (not suggestive of coquetesh … just friendly) smile, ask how they’re doing, and all the while never stop walking … and this is only if they make eye contact and smile at me /first/. It typically ends up being awkward for a few steps … you and he (or her) trying to determine whether or not you should smile in this situation. Heck, I find myself encouraging more /men/ to offer a friendly smile when they walk by because they look like they’re /afraid/ of me.
In gaining gender equality, I don’t want to terrify all the men. Most of my best friends are men. I’ve always gotten along better with men or women. The LAST thing that I want to do is to make all the men cower in a corner, wondering if it’s okay for them to smile or nod, or laugh at a joke, or hold a door open. Sometimes all it takes to get a man to give you a little respect (public or private) is to simply return the favor.
Now, all that said, I don’t think that people should be walking around and forcing other people to smile — male or female — but a little more personability can go a long way. I mean, what kind of world of equality will we make when we’re all equally afraid of so much as smiling at the other?
I have to disagree with the feminist majority on this one. I smile at passers-by, whether male or female, because it gives me a bit of an endorphin rush to elicit a smile out of someone else.
And hey, it’s all about you, right? How dare the frowny majority try to ruin your day!
When a smile and “personability” is most likely to get no more than social courtesy back, I’ll do it. Perhaps, as you and Phyllis Schafly would have it, it’s something about us that gets the crappy reactions, but I’m a little over having to deal with guys who think a) I owe them my time and attention because THEY want it, and b) that if it turns out that I don’t want any more interaction than a polite hello, I am a bitch who deserves verbal (and perhaps physical) abuse for leading them on.
For what it’s worth, going to a random stranger and telling them to smile is just plain weird and I’m not exactly an advocate of that.
To date, I’ve never walked up and introduced myself by talking about how interesting I am. Don’t plan to as I would be just as put off by that as you are. I actually don’t even talk about myself first because I’m more interesting in learning about them than I am telling them all about me. But I do believe that I am interesting person to get to know and I’d probably say the same about anyone here, including those of you that I am disagreeing with.
As far as being “defensive,” I don’t have a whole lot to be defensive about. Smile, don’t smile, it’s no skin off my nose. I just find the attitude puzzling. I’m not instinctively a smiler myself, but I try to be more of one.
As far as “approachable” and “smiley smiles” go, I consider them both approachable to an extent. I’ve not been referring to seductive smiles or “come and talk to me ones,” but overall demeanor. Smiley smiles go a good ways as well.
If I sound like I take this all personally, I only sort of do. My life has been rife with female-types (until recently, I’ve had more female friends than male ones) that buy in to this mind-set. They lean on their existing friends too heavily, wonder why they can’t find that special guy, and don’t see the role they’re playing in all of this. The more social friends who also complain that they can’t find that special guy are still looking, but lead, what appears to me, to be more satisfying (if more complicated) lives in the interim.
It’s not a gender specific issue, as I’ve had guy friends with the same tendencies. It’s bizarre to me that random strangers would walk up to you and tell you to smile. I took a quick headcount with ladies that I’ve talked to last night and today (6 in all, including AIM chats) and it’s not happened to them in the manner described above, though none of them live in southern California (Two in Idaho, one in Alabama, and three in Texas), so I don’t know what to tell ya about that, other than that it’s really weird to me and I wouldn’t condone that kind of upfrontwardness.
Okay, the issue isn’t being a “good” woman who is smiley or not. The issue is that some men feel perfectly within their rights to walk up to women and request that they behave in a way that’s sole purpose is to make others feel pleasant.
Is it sexist to expect women to just smile all the time so men can feel more welcomed by them? Let’s see….Can you for the life of you imagine someone telling a guy that he can’t get a date because he doesn’t smile prettily enough at strange women?
It’s creepy to expect women’s outward appearances to be more reflective of men’s desires than those women’s own feelings. I have a big, eye-crinkling smile and a huge laugh. My friends clearly think this is great, but I meet plenty of men who are intimidated by a woman with a boistrous sense of humor. Should I rein it in to suit them? No. So why should I smile to be “approachable” when I have things on my mind other than making men around me feel smiled at?
Oh, and to drag it back to Hugo’s original post, I think young women tend to have even more ugly experiences in the course of the day with blatantly sexist men in their peer group, which makes them even more hesistant to speak to their male peers and therefore even harder on those young men who do want to be nice.
I just find the attitude puzzling.
Imagine that an awful lot of those strange women you’re dying to get to know are actually black belts in Krav Maga and could kill you with their pinkies. Imagine further that about half the time, when you smile at them or reply politely to their chatting at you, they take this as an indication that you are now romantically interested in them. And if you turn out not to be, odds are good that they will turn verbally abusive, perhaps even physically abusive, and accuse you of being a tease or a prick or stuck-up.
How many iterations of this would it take for you to quit being “approachable?” And how would you feel when a female acquaintance of yours pouted that men just don’t smile at her anymore, and it’s not fair, because SHE enjoys it so they ought to?
They lean on their existing friends too heavily, wonder why they can’t find that special guy, and don’t see the role they’re playing in all of this.
That role being the failure to act “approachable” to perfect strangers? I somehow doubt that’s the source of their romantic woes.
Wow… this is all getting very, very weird. I just can’t imagine that something as simple as smiling and being friendly to another human being, whether male or female, is that big of an issue. I never, ever thought of it as one. And yeah, I agree … someone coming up to you and telling you to smile (unless they’re a friend who’s telling you to smile because you seem down) is really, really weird. I maintain that it just must be where I’ve been in my life … no one’s EVER told me to smile.
Creepy. But this notion that you’re smiling just to make yourself appealing because a man wants to make you appealing? Isn’t that going against the whole basis of feminism … I mean, Amanda … if that’s the case, then why do you wear pumps or dresses or make-up? Couldn’t it easily be said that you’re just trying to make yourself appealing by a man’s definition?
Can’t a smile just be a smile because you *want* to smile? Because you feel good about smiling at another human being?
Isn’t that going against the whole basis of feminism
I don’t *remember* falling down a rabbit hole, but I guess I must have. In what other universe is saying that you shouldn’t have to smile because it makes random, unknown men happy ‘going against the whole basis of feminism’?
Nobody is saying you CAN’T smile, Astarte. That’s worlds away from saying that women SHOULD smile and be “approachable” because it pleases men for them to do so.
I simply don’t see where anyone said that smiling at men was required because you must make yourself appealing to men.
Please point out where that was said. I could well be wrong.
When a perfect stranger on the street says to me “smile”, my first thought is to laugh at him. Fortunately I do the sensible thing and ignore him. But then again, I have been the victim of attempted purse/satchel snatchings by people who ask for a quarter n dime for a phone or for a match/light. It is unfortunate, since I tend to be uncharitable out of fear, unless I have come prepared with loose bus fare money in pocket. I have to say that single women are far more likely to be the target of aggressive panhandling by men than couples or single men. The few aggressive types and thieves spoil it for the rest.
Astarte, you came rather close to saying that, with your suggestions that since we don’t want men to cower in fear (of what? not being smiled at?), that we should show ‘a little respect’ first. Granted you were a little rambly, but you sure sounded as though you were saying we ought to be smiley and friendly to strange men so they aren’t, like, afraid and stuff.
I never said anything of the sort, Mythago. Pleae don’t read into what I have to say regardless of how ‘rambly’ it may or may not be. If you have a question as to my meaning, feel free to ask it.
What I did say (or, rather, mean) is that it doesn’t seem fair to men to receive our frowns when they smile to us simply because women red men’s smiles as lecherous even when they aren’t.
simply because women red men’s smiles as lecherous even when they aren’t.
Why do you think women do this?
What doesn’t seem fair to me is assuming that a) women must respond positively to a man’s smile or approach because the man wants it, and b) minimizing and ignoring the very real risks women take in acting “approachable” to strangers.
Astarte, I don’t have a problem being appealing to men or not. Sometimes yes sometimes no, depends on mood, occasion, etc. What I do have a problem with is people who expect that I, as a woman, need to be “on” all the time for men’s benefit.
And nice shoes are their own reward.
Mythago, what doesn’t seem fair to me is that your assumption that the act of you smiling at a man is because HE wants it. My ‘rambly’ comment was to point out that I smile at people in general because it makes *me* feel better, not because they expect me to.
And to address the ‘risk’ factor… really, can you come up with some statistical evidence that women who smile at men are more likely to be raped than those that glower?
That’s what I mean about living in fear. It isn’t just men that can live in fear, it’s women, too. No, no, don’t smile, he might take that the wrong way and rape me in the back alley. No no, don’t make eye contact, he might decide that means ‘yes’.
On the man’s side, it’s ‘Don’t make eye contact with her, she might not like it, and by all means don’t smile at her’. I smiled and said ‘afternoon’ to a man on a secluded trail at Yosemite and I swear, he looked shocked at it.
Is this really how we want men to react to us? Do we want them to universally fear that we’re going to interpret their actions down to a smile?
And hey, it’s all about you, right? How dare the frowny majority try to ruin your day!
Mythago, normally you seem pretty level headed in comments, but THAT was totally uncalled for and all the subsequent replies could have had a much nicer tone if you hadn’t gotten snippy. I see Astarte said, “I have to disagree with the feminist majority on this one..” and then she explained why.
Please tell us why you had to respond with such an attitude and push a perfectly good conversation too close to the edge of a flamefest. You’re usually more well spoken than this.
Mythago, Amanda, Astarte: First off, know that I don’t “lump all feminists” in a box; you take different approaches to gender issues, both in your comments and blogs. But I have to say that I am very surprised that this issue seems to have been the one to create such a rift.
I’ve got a vaguely related post coming up tomorrow. (To men, women, safety, and smiling, that is…)
i can’t relate to the comments here (being a chronic smiler/smilee), but i can say i loved this post and think you should be required reading for men everywhere, hugo.
your friend, jen (smiling as she types)
Hugo, I didn’t mean to just hijack your comments. It was a toss-off comment, and one where I think there’s mostly just misunderstanding. I think I might have to blog about it, too.
really, can you come up with some statistical evidence that women who smile at men are more likely to be raped than those that glower?
Speaking of putting words in people’s mouths. (Though I might point you to a friend of mine who got punched in the face for failing to respond to a man who shouted “Smile!” at her on the street.)
Do we want them to universally fear that we’re going to interpret their actions down to a smile?
Do we, as women, want to live in a world where we have to weigh and interpret their actions down to a smile, lest we be accused of “leading him on” or “asking for it” if the reaction is unpleasant?
Gavin de Becker’s books really talk about this more articulately than I’m managing here. He points out that in our culture, women are expected to be warm and receptive to men, and that being warm and receptive to strangers prolongs that interaction. So a woman who doesn’t really want more contact than a brief civility is now spending her time with somebody who thinks the conversation is “going somewhere,” which is not going to lead to anything good.
The short version being that if a strange guy smiles at me, I don’t “frown” (betrayer of feminism that I might otherwise be!), but I keep moving. Because I’ve just had too damn many interactions where the guy thought a smile–either initated by me or by him–meant he had the right to take up as much of my time as he liked, or try and pick me up, and if I didn’t continue to his satisfaction it was OK to call me a bitch, or start shouting after me how stuck-up I am, or follow me around, or otherwise behave in a way that I promise you does not encourage me to smile.
And yes, I’m pissy about this topic, I admit it. I feel like I can explain over and over that the risk of being screamed at, loomed over, or just plain bothered is not worth making some random person feel all warm n’ fuzzy by smiling back at him, and I’ll still get blank looks.
Mythago, you’re going to get blank looks because these things /simply haven’t happened/ to a lot of women. Aurora reminded me tonight of the one time when a man wanted me to smile, and it was in a crowded mall, where we think he was doing some sort of social experiment. I had completely forgotten about the incident, and now that I remember it, I gave the guy a look of repulsion and went about my shopping.
But, to me, that isn’t a response to an expectation to act in a particular way. It’s responding to some idiot who thought they could talk to me. It also triggered a memory about a guy who told me off because I wouldn’t sit and pliantly listen to him try to sell me fake perfume; but I’m sure he would have done that if I were a guy, and he was selling cologne, too.
The point of the matter, I think, is how you look at it. Call it a glass-half-full, glass-half-empty sort of thing. The glass if half full if you just assume that a few guys might act like assholes, but more often than not you’re just going to make some stranger’s day (male or female) by smiling. The glass if half empty if you go by the belief that because SOMEONE out there would react adversely, you can not act friendly with other people.
Like I said, I don’t know how our situations differ. Maybe I’m more of a hermit, and come into contact with less people. Maybe I’ve just gotten lucky, but for the life of me, even when I’d dress like a BDSM prostitute to go clubbing at nineteen, in San Francisco, I NEVER had this sort of thing happen to me. Heck, maybe I’m just not attractive to men of this ilk, I don’t know what it is, but coming from my point of view, the whole thing is silly.
And how is it putting words in your mouth when I ask for some empirical evidence that you’re in more risk if you’re a smiler?
A couple of points. First, though I’m on mythago’s and Amanda’s side of the argument here, I want to make it clear that I’m not upset with Astarte for taking the other side. I suspect that part of the reason the thread has deteriorated is that maybe we’re imagining different situations here?
Second, I don’t frown and grimace, either, if a stranger smiles at me (I save that for groups of men making catcalls), even on the street; depending on where I am and what time of day it is, I might smile back briefly and keep walking, or I might keep a neutral face and keep walking. Or I might be lost in my own thoughts and not notice.
Here’s the thing. Three encounters, none of them totally out of the ordinary, when I was walking by myself in my young and single days.
First one: I’m at White Plaza on the Stanford campus, where I’m a student. A guy walks up to me and claims he’s recruiting for movies, or modelling, or something, I forget the exact details, and I’d be a good candidate. He’s obviously full of it, but hey, I don’t mind hearing his nonsense, as long as I’m in the plaza surrounded by other students. Till he walks me to the edge of the plaza and suggests I go off with him in his car, at which point I decline politely (do not get a business card with any legit business, just in case I needed further confirmation that he was lying) and go on my way.
Second case: I’ve now graduated, work swing shift, and live by myself (no car). As is often the case, I’m out alone after dark. Some drunk in a car (I will kick myself afterwards for not getting his license plate number and calling the cops) yells some sort of pass at me, follows me. I’m scared, so I turn and run straight for the door of the nearest house – at least that way there will be one actual person who will have reason to call the police. He stops following me, and drives on.
Case three: I’m out alone at night, still working swing shift, but now I live right across the street from work. Some stranger seems to be making a movement in my direction. He’s likely innocent; he might even be a friend or acquaintance that I don’t recognize at this distance in the dark. I can’t take the chance. I turn and head, not home, but toward work, where I can stop in at the security guard’s shack, and wait for the coast to be clear.
Guy number one gave me reason to mistrust him (and I suppose got more of my time than he deserved), guy number two actually threatened me, and guy number three may very well have been innocent, just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and unaware of how much reason I’d see to be on my guard.
The reason I reacted so strongly on the “safety” side of this issue was that I felt a couple of people were suggesting that I should never treat someone as guilty until proven innocent. No matter what the situation, I should give everyone a fresh slate. That doesn’t seem safe to me. I don’t think, in most situations, I actually do treat men as guilty until proven innocent. But there are some situations where I have to.
And there are a lot of situations where I just might be minding my own business, happy with my own thoughts, and not feeling particularly extroverted and sociable. Which was another reason why I didn’t think Amanda should be advised to smile when she doesn’t care to, in order to meet more people she isn’t interested in meeting at the moment.
The other problem, more than the smile, was R. Alex’s use of the word “approachability.” No, Astarte, I don’t think that women who smile are more likely to be raped than women who aren’t. I do think that women who ignore their instincts on when to be wary, and try to make nice and be approachable anyway, because they feel they should, may be more likely to be raped. And I think that men who are miffed when women aren’t more approachable sometimes need to remember just what it’s like to have people much bigger and stronger than you routinely misread your friendliness and then act as if you owe them something you never intended to offer.
Part of the problem is that I think there is usually a low level of fear in a single woman walking around by herself. This is not to suggest that we aren’t able to take care of ourselves, but we are taught at an early age to “protect ourselves” from men and we are used to the feeling of low level fear. We don’t realize how negative it really is. We absolutely miss out on meeting some great people and this is a shame. Men haven’t been subjected to the same fear for physical safety when relating to the opposite sex as women have. This isn’t to say that they can’t understand, but it is a different perspective.
Okay, so this question really applies to all of you. Lynn just described three separate events, only one of which could have potentially had to do with the simple act of smiling. But then, she used some very specific language. She said that men “…routinely misread your friendliness and then act as if you owe them something you never intended to offer.”
Based upon my, personal experience and Lynn’s anecdotes, I’d hardly think this “routine”. By what basis you believe that men routinely do this, and is it fair to the men to believe that?
Secondly, R. Alex said that he would talk to the person who was approachable, and avoid the one that was not approachable. If your desire is to be unapproachable, which it sounds like, then what he said is perfectly reasonable and I don’t see any reason to attack him over it.
Gotta say, I’m with mythago and Amanda on this (and thank you mythago, for bringing up Gavin DeBecker!! anyone who doesn’t understand the not-smiling, really needs to read his books).
I always ignore the barked order to “smile”. Someone who says, “smile!” rather than “hi” (which would actually elicit a smile) is not just after “approachability”…most men have been around long enough to know that “smile!” will either get a frown or get him ignored by most women. So….I can’t help but think he’s not really the kind of guy I want to meet.
But I don’t have that level of wariness because I’ve been brought up to carry that steely-eyed look around with me as a matter of course (I was, but…). I learned very quickly from experience, as a young girl (early developer) that there are (a) a helluva lot of men who will assault you and (b) not a whole helluva lot of people who will assist you if you are assaulted. I might be viewed as unfriendly, but I care more about my personal safety. I’m not obligated to provide total strangers on the street with a smile.
Astarte, I think the issue isn’t one of friendliness leading to rape or whatever. I think more it’s that people are using two extreme examples to show that the tensions between men and women cause a “guilty until proven innocent” reaction on ALL levels. At the scariest is the fact that women have to treat all strange men as a rape threat in the sense that we have to be aware at all times not to be all alone with a strange man, etc.
But on a more mundane level, women be might reluctant even to engage with strange men altogether in certain circumstances because there’s always an off-chance that said man could be the sort of asshole that rapidly gets hostile if women don’t do as he wishes them to. A good example of this is men who tell strange women to “smile”, but there are other examples.
How often this happens to you is probably as much a product of geography. I’m not surprised that men and women in San Francisco get along pretty easily. The chance that a man would get hostile with me like this in public reduced dramatically when I moved from West Texas to Austin. In West Texas, being friendly and smiling will attract men to you that you’d really rather not speak to more often than not. In Austin, most guys I meet are pretty laid back and won’t get all grabby the second a woman smiles at them, so I feel way more comfortable doing so. Does that make sense?
Based upon my, personal experience and Lynn’s anecdotes, I’d hardly think this “routine”. By what basis you believe that men routinely do this, and is it fair to the men to believe that?
I think it may be confusing because I’m eliding two different things together – the “why I’m on my guard when out alone” business, and the “men misunderstand my friendliness” business. I have had total strangers act as if I owe them, in public settings, because of some minor friendliness on my part, a couple of times, but that’s not where “men misunderstand my friendliness” is routine. It’s not as if I’m hanging around for it; as Stacey says, there’s a chronic low level of fear in that situation. The misunderstanding my friendliness happened more in social settings, where I am, after all, friendly (and is a deterrent to being very friendly in situations where I feel less safe). Here’s how it worked, in order from what was common to what was rare:
Really, really common: Men being way over-optimistic about what kind of sexual advances I’d be open to, how likely my smiles or friendliness were to mean that I was receptive, etc. This kind of thing would range from agreeing to dance, in college, with a seemingly nice guy that I’d just met, and suddenly finding his hands groping my butt, to listening to a guy, and then finding out he thought my listening to him meant I was really into him. Most of these times, however over-optimistic, the guy would respond promptly enough to a “no.” But it happened really often, and I could rarely guess what I might have done to give the impression I’d be that receptive.
Less common, but still not at all rare: Men who would get verbally offended at rejection, or would try to argue with me, or would take repeated, escalating rejections before they would finally get the message.
Only happened to me twice: Men who actually grabbed me after I’d said no. One of these was a stranger, and one a supposed friend. But “only happened to me twice,” while not “routine,” isn’t rare enough. Especially given that I had lots of friends who’d been assaulted. So this last, if not at all “routine” in the sense that most men would do it, is still “routine” in the sense that it seems to happen to most women at one time or another. And it makes the “less common but not at all rare” category of men who merely verbally argue, complain about being led on, etc., scarier than it otherwise would be.
The other problem was that men who got offended would never tell me anything specific that I might have done to mislead them, so after a while I started spending a lot of time and energy trying to guess. Did I need to dress differently? Stand farther away? Not touch men in even a friendly way if I didn’t mean it as a come on? Just what was I doing wrong to keep being treated like this?
All of this from my young and single days; it no longer happens to me, but it’s still imprinted my behavior.
On another tangent, my husband recently mentioned to me (not apropos this thread) that when he’d been in Croatia, he’d discovered a cultural difference. He’d offer to escort a woman home, based on his American “you mustn’t leave your women friends to walk alone at night” training, and she’d wonder why he was doing it. There just wasn’t the same expectation there.
I should add that what I think may have looked to young men my age like treating them as guilty until proven innocent – the kind of second guessing that kept me turning off some of my ways of being friendly – from my perspective felt a lot like “what is there wrong with me that I need to fix?”
It would be interesting to know how the opinions expressed above correlate to location (not just city or country, but neighborhood) and history of being assaulted, mugged, followed by strangers, also race of writer (my guess is that most of the above writers are white, just because the blogosphere is fairly white). To me street smarts just means keeping strangers at a distance. I have been held up at gunpoint twice and followed many times, and eventually I got more street smart. The de Becker book has good sense, I think. I am urban, work in a high-crime neighborhood, live in a more upscale urban island neighborhood at the edge of high-crime neighborhoods, and am white and fairly average in size and appearance.
I’ve been told to “smile” by both men and women (though when it was a stranger, it was only older men). I got a clear sense that it was a dominating action, though coated in sugar. And it’s usually along estabished hierarchies; i.e. men say it to women, old to young, parents to children, etc. I have seen women commanding men to “smile”, but in most cases the woman was older or outranked the man in some other manner.
I absolutely can’t stand to be told to “smile”, but a lot of times I’ll do it anyway to appease them for the moment. But this discussion has inspired me. Next time I hear that, I’m going to call the person on it. Say something like “I’m sorry, but I really don’t appreciate being told to smile.” (In a kind tone, but with no smile.) Fight sugar with sugar, I say!
Just to jump in with another story, I’m a SoCal girl transplanted to Chicago.
In California, I would toss out a nutball grin to just about anyone, and never had any problems with it. So when I got to Chicago I did the same thing. From day to day there was a little bit of randomness – sometimes guys wouldn’t grin back, they’d just say “Hey there,” and look me up and down like a piece of meat. One asked me, “Where do you live?” – that was fun. But none of them followed me, didn’t bug me when I walked away from them, etc.
One Friday evening I was in Blockbuster, renting a movie. Tired from a long day, and just sort of trudging up and down the aisles. I came around a corner, staring dully ahead of me, and realized I’d just looked right at some guy standing outside the Blocbuster window – so I smiled at him then kept on with my dutiful trudge. Got up to the register, and just then he came into the store, walking right up to me. He stuck his hand out – “Hi, I’m Jim,” he said. I shook his hand, “Hi Jim,” I said, thinking for one random moment that maybe his car had run out of gas and he didn’t have a cellphone, or he needed some other thing. Nope.
“Do you like videos?” he said. I’m early twenties but look eighteen. Jim looked late forties, and eager. I turned away from him and looked at the clerk, basically doing all I could to quit signalling any sort of interest, and grunted noncommittally.
“What kind of videos do you like?” he asked, stepping closer. “It varies,” I said.
This wasn’t the answer he was looking for, so we went through a few iterations of that, then he said, “I have A LOT of videos at my house.”
At this point I’ve been signalling for the last few minutes that I don’t want to talk to him. And, part of this is my fault – I should have just explicitly asked him to leave me alone. But I was exhausted, and made the mistake of thinking he’d realize that a woman who wasn’t looking at him, facing him, replying in more than a monosyllable, and was completely expressionless, probably didn’t want to be talking to him.
He was also seriously into my personal space.
I’d just paid for the video and was trying to figure out what to do if he followed me out of the store, when one of the clerks (thank God for her) said, “Hey Jim, c’mere a sec!” She was standing on the other side of the counter, with a stand of snacks between her and him. He made his way past me, over to her, and the path to the door was clear. I headed out, and speed-walked all the way home.
I called the Blockbuster when I got home to thank the clerk who’d helped me. She said, “Oh thank god you called – he noticed you’d left about a second after you were out the door, and ran out of the store after you, cursing. We didn’t know if you’d made it home safe.”
Smiling at strangers happens at that split-second when you glance into their face as you walk by. I didn’t even think before I smiled at that guy – it was instinctive. So, this incident. Rare? Yes. Sticking with me? Oh hell yes. It’s a risk game – I could smile at someone and they’ll smile back, and
we’ll have a nice little moment of human contact (30%). Or, I’ll get no response (50%). Or a random sexual come on, hey baby, you wanna come out with me? (15%) Or he’ll come after me into a damn Blockbuster and I will have to spend fifteen minutes doing safety calculations and trying to figure out if there’s a rock or something I can grab, and glancing behind me as I walk home in the dark (5%). But you know what? That 5% does a whole lot to negate the 30% tiny happy feelings, and the 15% of random crap isn’t much fun either.
And when I walk staring straight ahead, expressionless? No one bugs me. No one follows me, and no one thinks I might be their lay for the night. And I get to think about my grocery list, and what I have to do that day, and the books I’m reading, and who I’m going out to lunch with, and there’s very little in the way wondering if I’m going to get followed all the way back to my door, and what somebody might do if they’re a little nutty AND know where I live.
I’m still trying to figure out a way to not “lead men on” by acting like a normal person in the way that I would to any girl- i.e. speak politely to a stranger in a social situation. I cannot figure out how I am always giving them the impression that yes, I’d really like to date them when all we discussed was the weather for 2 minutes. My friend was making a comment to me the other day about how Jackie Kennedy was so famed for being a conversationalist because she just paid attention to them, and she thought that just the act of paying attention to them for that 2 minutes was winning them over. ARGH!!!!
I suspect there is a certain class of guy that really wants to think you are interested, will take any non-negative sign (i.e. you didn’t cuss them out upon meeting them) as a sign that you are interested, and just plain won’t take hints or listen to no, because they are so convinced of what they want to see and hear from you. And there are a lot of guys like this. I have a reputation for being a creep magnet because these fellows flock around me. God forbid I go somewhere new and speak to a stranger with a penis sometimes, because you wouldn’t believe some of the stuff I’ve had happen.
I hate to be a rude bitch who won’t speak to strangers, and it does make your life awkward to live it like that, but being friendly on a minor can bite you in the butt just as hard sometimes. I cannot think of a solution to this problem for the life of me.
You DON’T want to smile at these people. Or acknowledge they are on the planet, because it gives them hope. Problem is, how can you tell them apart from the non-stalker-creepy guys? You usually can’t tell just on sight. So yes, you do have to judge every guy as “guilty until proven innocent.” The consequences of giving them all a chance can just be too high.
Er…that was “being friendly on a minor level,” not that I’m being overly friendly to minors or something.
And I’ve had those lovely moments such as Burning had. *shudder* Though I can’t say that ignoring the guys and being blank has worked 100% either. Hell, I got physically pawed on the street by panhandlers one day who had evidently had enough of me walking by them on the street with my iPod in, trying to look preoccupied and ignoring their calls to me every time I had to pass them on the street.
I’m just sick of being a girl and having most people around me seem to think that I’m something they can do whatever they want with because I have boobs and a vagina. Really, really tired of it.
I’d agree that, as a woman, you’re likely going to measure your smiling/friendliness level depending on how comfortable you feel in a given location (and likely how old you are). I’d also agree that, as a woman, you learn very quickly to gauge your behavior based on the level of threat you feel. Is that right? Does it suck? Sure. But we do it. Because that’s how you survive.
When I lived in the NW and later, Alaska, I didn’t pay much attention to the “smile” comments (I get these a lot – I’m not a naturally friendly person, and I’m stuck in serious thought more often than not). Most of the “hi”s and “smile”s from Fairbanksans were friendly: men (and women) said hello and passed on by, without demanding any more conversation if I didn’t start one; no one followed me, or men sexual invitations. After a time, I became much more relaxed and laid back, to the point where I’d actually take rides with strangers and fine-tuned my “radar” so that I’d take the occasional chance going somewhere alone with a pseudo-stranger. I just didn’t find men all that scary. And I had complete trust in my neighbors. If the shit went down, I knew I could count on the vast majority of friendly strangers for help.
Then I moved to a big city. It started while I was overseas, in Durban, South Africa, and I was suddenly being cat-called at, followed, and grabbed at by random passersby. I stopped making eye contact, stopped smiling at strangers, and managed to get these male intrusions on my personal space down to 2-3 a week.
If you think that’s just a foreign country thing, wait: then I moved to Chicago. I spend 15 hours a week on the train. The great equalizer. Now I’ll get the drunken, “You’re very beautiful. Did you HEAR ME? DID YOU HEAR ME??” “Nice peice of ass!” and “Smile!” only once or twice a week. And I do better than most – I’m not little and blond. Not being the cultural ideal of “attractive” you’d think I’d not get harrassed at all, right?
Ha. It’s about power.
Age likely has something to do with it as well. I’m still youngish (24). What happens in big cities more often than not (and I can tell you this from experience) is that saying “hello” back to random strange men on the street who say hello will get you 1) followed 2) yelled at, as they attempt to prolong the conversation as they follow you.
Strange men who follow you are scary. Why? Do you watch the news? Do you see the spray of mangled, mutilated female bodies thrust in front of us? Lori Peterson? All the women Manson killed? What about television? What’s the proportion of female murder victims to male murder victims on our tv shows and on the news?
My roommate is 5’2, 120lbs. She’s from California, and spent her first couple years here in Chicago living in Evanston. When I got here, we moved closer to downtown. She was walking around the corner to pick up videos around this time last year, and passed by a guy coming out of the store. She raised her head as she passed, and smiled, merely acknowledging another person passing her. *HE TURNED AROUND* and *FOLLOWED HER BACK INTO THE VIDEO STORE*. He proceeded to try and make conversation with her. She kept blowing him off. He kept trying to talk. Increasingly agitated, she bundled up her rentals and sped to the exit. *The guy continued to follow her.* As he approached the exit, the woman at the counter called him back (bless her heart), and insisted there were several things she needed to speak with him about regarding his account.
When my buddy got home, she called the woman at the counter to thank her. “Thank goodness you called,” the woman said. “I stalled him as long as I could, but when he looked up and saw you were gone, he started swearing and ran out the door. I was seriously hoping you were all right.”
My buddy got lucky. It’s the only time I’ve ever encountered anyone in Chicago who stood up for a stranger being harrassed.
That’s the worst of the Chicago stories (there are many, many more), but I have a lot of Durban stories too (including an incident at a busstop when two men came up to the thin blond girl next to me and started threatening her with all of the sexual things they were going to do to her, and I turned around and started cussing and screaming at them and telling them they were violating our right to stand there in peace. They were so shocked they just stood there silently for a few moments and then wandered away. “Thanks,” the girl told me afterward, “I’m always afraid of standing up for myself because I’m afraid I’m going to get knifed.” I was afraid of getting knifed, too), and let me tell you – after that incident at the rental store, my buddy is a lot more careful about who she’s friendly with while walking down the street alone.
These are survival tactics. Anybody who says otherwise hasn’t lived as a woman in a big city, walking around alone (and in Durban, one *never* walked around at night without a male escort. You just didn’t, unless you had a BIG group of women. The rape rate there is 1 in 3).
Is this every woman’s experience?
No (obviously, as this little sample has illustrated), likely because of age or geography, women will have different experiences, just as men will have different experiences of interacting with women on the street. What I resent is men’s assumption that they have some sort of right to be treated better than anyone else. I don’t smile much at women, either.
Is it sexism, to not be friendly to a guy? Do I violate his civil rights by not smiling when he asks it of me? Do I physically abuse him by not saying “hello”? Would anyone ask a *guy* this?
When asked what they fear most about the opposite sex, women will say, “Being raped and/or beaten or killed.” Men will say, “Being laughed at.”
It says a lot about the rift between most male and female experience, to see those two reactions next to each other. You can sort of see them colliding here as well.
Do men (or women) violate my right to privacy by demanding that I interact with them? I’d argue that yes, they do. You can’t force me to interact with you. That’s assumption of privilege: believing that the world owes you something.
Women have a right to protect themselves. Scarily enough, that often means being very, very picky about who you’re friendly with when you’re alone. The legal system is against you.
Should it be that way? Should I be “allowed” to be friendly with whomever I want, without fear of being followed home by some psycho? Sure. That would be great. It would be great to walk down Lawrence in a skimpy skirt at 1am, all by myself, and not worry 1) that I’ll be attacked 2) that if I survive said attack and am raped/beaten/mutilated, that the judge won’t blame *me* because I was in a skirt at 1am on Lawrence.
There have been a lot of studies done about how many people will “help” you if you’re assaulted or verbally abused in a big city. 99% of the time, NO ONE WILL HELP YOU. Or, they’ll wait until you’re being beaten or raped, and then maybe somebody might slow down and consider what they should do. Maybe.
Why was I so nice in Alaska? Why did I feel so safe?
I opened up the local paper one day to find that a woman who’d flown into Fairbanks for business had been grabbed and pulled into the woods along the road.
THREE CARS STOPPED IMMEDIATELY. One woman grabbed a rifle from the gunrack of her truck, and two men chased down the jogger’s attacker before he even managed to wrestle the jogger to the ground. He fled into the woods, and within 20 minutes, there were helicopters searching the area for the attacker.
No offense to Durban or Chicago, but I just don’t trust the people here to react in that kind of way. I’m on my own.
I think that if men want to live in a friendlier society, they should take more steps toward eliminating the harrassment of women (Hugo’s points here are very valid) in their own peer groups, standing up when someone is verbally or physically harrassed, and refraining from such harrassment themselves.
It’s not sexist to not smile at men any more than it’s sexist to not smile at women. It’s my right.
That said, I think you’ll find that everyone is a lot more laid back when they feel safer. And I think a lot of men would be really surprised to realize just how many women walk around hyper-aware of their surroundings and assessing how dangerous the people around them are (particularly the men – we’re working on statistics and personal experiences).
If guys want to help change that, go for it – teach other guys how not to be assholes. Evaluate your own behavior. Talk to your female friends about it. Don’t get stuck here being pissed off because you feel like it’s tougher to get laid because random female strangers won’t smile at you. Get over it. Try looking over the fence. You’ll find a whole other set of experiences over there. Some of them might actually freak you out.
Oh, hilarious. “Burning” is my roomie – that’s the movie rental story, bite for bite. Ha!
Damn, woman, you beat me to the punch!
Ah, the joy of the midmorning posting flurry at work. Hello, my roommate.
I’ve had men tell me to smile more times than I can count–and I live in a region of non-smilers, for heaven’s sake. It’s boorish and rude to demand that a stranger perform for you on command.
I am not a smiler on good days–I smile in acknowledgement if someone stops their car and lets me pass, or as I say thank you to someone. I smile in greeting to people I know, I smile when I hear good news or a good joke, and I smile, or laugh, when I hear or see something I think is funny. I do not smile on command, although I will tell someone who tries to order me to do so to get lost.
I am not going to smile for someone’s comfort or convenience. I do not grin like an idiot when I go to the restroom. I don’t smile when I wait for biopsy results, cope with the death of a friend or relative, make contingency plans for impending layoffs at work, or hear about an immediate family member being hospitalized from a car accident or illness. Yet in all of these situations, complete strangers (men) have commanded me to smile. And yeah, I could have told them why I didn’t want to, but why the hell should I? What business was it of theirs anyway? And how on earth is some stranger putting me on the defensive inspiring me to smile?
I guess this means I’m not approachable (or datable, though my boyfriend would be surprised by that). Neither is eighty percent of the people in my city. So what? We don’t talk to random strangers. I have see you on the same train, or on my walk to work, or in the same place for a while before we start nodding to each other in greeting, then exchanging pleasantries, etc. It takes a while to crack the nut, that’s the way things are here. I’m not about to pretend I’m from Disneyland for someone else’s comfort.
NancyP’s point about personal situations is a great one and I touched on it a little in my blog. I seize up and get defensive when I’m back home in El Paso going out with friends because some men there act like they’ve never seen a woman before. Here, it’s no big and I’m personable. If a strange man walks up and asks a question, I can usually assume he’s not going to start wigging out on me. This is not true everywhere, by any means.
So, whatever, clearly I’m wrong.
I think the issue here is a diversity of experiences can lead to some misunderstandings, to say the least. I’ve definitely had people, especially men, flat out not believe me when I say that some guy was following me or said something nasty or whatever–it’s just unfathomable if it’s never happened to you. Hell, some of the stories on here seem really crazy to me, but then again, I’ve just never had a situation escalate like some of these did. So I’m lucky.
I have had something come close to Burning’s experience with a creepy older man who seemed determine to follow me, but as I was in a really bad mood I finally just turned around and said, “Why don’t you just fuck off!” Luckily, that worked out okay for me, but stuff like that can be tough to call.
One thing that struck me about the original post was the assumption that women not smiling at him had something to do with their opinion of him as a person or their opinion of men in general. I found this very surprising, because while I have often been told to smile by strange men (and always found it annoying), I was never not smiling at them because of them specifically. I was usually not even noticing them at all and thinking of something else. I think what most bothered me about the original post (and being told to smile by strangers) is the whole idea that it is all about *them*. Why am I obligated to notice and react to strangers? Why should they take my not noticing them as a personal insult? It just seems really self-centered to me to assume that 1) a woman not smiling at you has something to do with her perception of you and 2) to assume you have the right to tell her to smile because somehow women owe it to men to be pleasant.
but coming from my point of view, the whole thing is silly.
And that’s the problem. You’re assuming that because it doesn’t happen to you and has never happened, it’s “silly” for anyone to claim it’s happened to them, or happened to most of the women they know; that clearly it’s just that somehow you’re doing something different (with the implication that the silly girls who are afraid of strangers must be, you know, part of the problem).
I’m willing to believe that you haven’t been through this crap. I’m more than a little disappointed that you’re so wedded to this “half-full glass” mentality that you refuse, utterly, to consider that your experience may not be shared by others.
As for ‘empirical evidence,’ when I start claiming that women who smile at strangers are 42% more likely to be raped than those who don’t, please do demand evidence. I don’t particularly feel that I need to prove to you that I’ve fended off one too many assholes to go around grinning at strangers anymore.
I know why people don’t tell me to smile, and why they don’t follow me home, and why I haven’t ever had a problem with an overly-frisky male, but I feel that if I were to explain that, I’d be told to stuff it.
So, I won’t.
I will, however, say that I’m disappointed. I thought feminism, in and of itself, had moved past the need to couch all of our discussions in violence. The mere fact that violence is the underlying factor for why people say they don’t smile at strangers really disturbs me.
I thought that part of being a responsible adult and a feminist is to not couch everything in blame on the other person. Read through this. Women are blaming /men/ for the fact that they don’t smile. Only a few have actually come forward and pointed out that they don’t smile for other reasons … deep thought, the fact that they just don’t care about other people, whatever.
And the person who pointed out the butchered and hacked bodies of women on television? That’s shock TV, and you’re letting it get to you. Young, black males are much more likely to be the targets of violence than young, white females.
So, yeah, I’m disappointed. Not only that we continue to steep every argument in violence, but that we can’t have one person move out of lockstep without the barracudas attacking her.
If we’re to even come close to equality with men, we’re going to have to start at least trying to understand them instead of saying to everything and anything, “I won’t do that with you because there’s a chance you might act violently.”
So what things is it acceptable to say “I won’t do this because it increases the risk of violence to me and it’s not worth it” for? Not smiling, no. Getting into an elevator alone with someone? Walking across a dark parking lot in a dangerous area? What’s wrong with us just having different standards of acceptable risk?
If I choose not to smile sometimes because I’m thinking of whatever and smiling never crosses my mind, that’s fine, but if I choose not to smile other times because when I have, I’ve ended up with some guy following me for blocks, that’s not okay?
Astarte, are you willfully misinterpreting everything that’s been written here, or are you just not reading it?
I don’t know what strange ideas you have about feminism, but I can tell you that it is NOT about women taking on the responsibility for men’s bad behaviour. When a man you’ve never seen before in your life commands you to “Smile!”, that’s bad behvaiour, and no one on earth should have to put up with it.
As for the assertion that women here are raging paranoiacs, to say that, you really must NOT have read anything posted above. The women here have TOLD you that there have been numerous occasions when they have been abused either verbally or physically by men who wouldn’t take no for an answer. I myself have been verbally abused more times than I can even count and actually physically assaulted several times for simply not adhereing to the sort of “properly girly” behaviour/appearance that random men I had never met in my life thought I should.
So, where do you get off telling me, or any other woman here, that we are being unreasonable or paranoid or in any other way overreacting? Or is it that you feel it was perfectly okay for the man who frightened my (much smaller) friend with his unwanted advances, and his absolute refusal to accept her “no”s to have punched me and knocked me to the ground merely for telling him to leave us alone?
You may live on a planet where random men don’t inflict verbal and pyhical abuse on women every day, but I & many others here don’t, and you are going to have to accept that.
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Interesting thread.
Astarte, when you characterize others’ arguments for not smiling on demand as being solely driven by violence prevention, you’re dismissing out of hand what a number of people have been saying: projecting approachability when you’re not feeling approachable invites others to approach you. Whether that leads to violence or simply a waste of your time, the effect is that someone else is imposing upon you because you feel obligated to appear friendly.
You’re also falling into the rhetorical trap of using your own experience of never having had this happen to conclude that it does not happen often. And yet you now allude to reasons why you’re not approached.
I am frequently told to smile by strangers. I hate it. Usually, I’m just minding my own business when some stranger barks an order at me. As much as I feel like going off on these people, I don’t. I live in New York, after all, and it’s not a good idea to tell random strangers to fuck off. But I don’t smile, either. Why should I?
Of course, I’m not humorless. If something amuses me, I smile. If I feel good, I smile. If I’m looking for attention, I smile. The fact that I smile at someone in no way obligates the other person to return it, but it feels nice when they do. But do I take a returned smile as an invitation? Not without further signals.
The problem we’re looking at here is that of unwanted attention. Like others have said, this can arise from misinterpretation of signals or simply the feeling that someone must return your gesture of approach, and result in anything from a few minutes of wasted time to being followed to worse.
I’ve had a number of experiences with men who have decided that a glance or a pleasantry entitles them to impose themselves on me. (I also learned very quickly after moving to New York to be careful about eye contact on the subway, because I apparently have a face that says to crazy people, “Tell me your life story!” But I digress.) A few examples:
* I once made fleeting eye contact with a guy on the subway, nothing more than eyes meeting as I scanned for a seat. This apparently entitled him to sit next to me and try to pick me up. He followed me when I got up and moved elsewhere. He continued to bug me even when I told him in no uncertain terms to leave me alone. He got off at my stop and followed me right to my apartment-building door (and it was a long scary late-night walk to the door under the best of circumstances). I had to physically push him out the door to make sure he stayed outside. I also had to put down newspaper for my dog to pee on because I didn’t feel safe taking her out.
* I was out at a bar with some friends of mine and when we left, a guy who’d been in the bar fell into step with us. I was pretty drunk, but feeling the safety of numbers and bright streetlights, so I chatted amiably with him. He apparently got the idea that I was going home with him based on this, and when I laughed that off with, “I gotta work tomorrow!” he became very hostile very quickly and BIT MY FACE. Right on the street, right in front of my friends. I slapped him, and we wound up in a shouting match that ended when my friends hustled me into a cab that had pulled up.
* Speaking of cabs, a roommate I had when I lived in Jersey City worked late several nights a week and took a shared cab home from the train station (the same cabs service the station every night). She had had only hello-where-to-that’ll-be-$5-thanks-goodnight contact with the driver until one night when he’d dropped off the other passengers and he cut off her attempt to give him directions with, “Oh, I know where you live. Do you want me to tell you where you sleep?” This ended only after she mentioned that I was a lawyer one time when he picked us both up from the station.
* I once took a nearly-empty bus to La Guardia and not only did the driver bypass my terminal on the first pass, he then dropped off the other passengers, patted the seat at the front and drove me around while telling me how much I looked like a girl from the neighborhood, etc.
* I used to buy my newspaper from a guy who stood outside the station. Nice guy, an immigrant from somewhere in Africa. He was always giving me compliments, which at first gave me a boost, but then started to feel creepy as they got more insistent. I started avoiding him by ducking down the other staircase when I thought he wasn’t looking; sometimes I did this just because I was running late and didn’t want to get into a whole long thing with him, I just wanted my paper. One day he yelled at me because he’d seen me duck him the previous day. It was frankly a little frightening. I started walking to another, further stop after that, until I moved later in that month.
* I’ve stopped going to certain clubs even though I like to dance because of the number of times that I’ve had guys start dancing with me and then decide that it’s okay to feel me up or follow me to the bathroom to be sure I don’t get away.
* Sometimes you just have to be standing there. I got on the subway one night after work and opened my book. As I stood there reading, I could see the guy next to me out of the corner of my eye, standing a little too close, even for the crowded conditions. Then I felt him next to me. It took me a few seconds to realize that he was rubbing himself up against me in a little frottage-o-rama.
These are just my experiences. I know people who have had others. I can’t say how widespread it is, but I can say it happens.
I can also say that whether or not I smile at someone passing me on the street or in the hallway has everything to do with whether I feel like I want to smile back or invest any time. It’s not my job to make men feel comfortable by smiling at them just because they look at me. I’m not responsible for their feelings, just as the person who doesn’t return my smile isn’t responsible for my feelings.
Why do you suppose some women go through life w/o incidence and others seem to have constant problems regardless of their smiling status ??
Some of it is plain and simple luck, but there has to be more. Of course location and environment play a part, but what is really at the heart of it ?? OK, ladies, no disrespect intended, but I will invariably offend some of you. But I really think that attitude is the missing variable.
Attitude determines your posture, body language, make-up, hairstyle, clothing choice, basically everything one read about you at a glance. I think in my argument attitude and self esteem are pretty much interchangeable, I just don’t particularly like talking about self esteem.
Anyways, I am getting off track. I am a pretty descent guy, I can be a jerk once in a while, but if you were to take a survey of ex’s, I think they would put my in the top 5 percentile of guys. So when I ask you this, it’s not from experience, it’s from what I have seen and read. Imagine if you are a creep, a dick, or a psychopath, do you really think it matters if a woman smiles at you ?? Either you are going to do what you do, regardless of a smile. Are you going to mess with some who looks they are going to kick the crap out of you and call the police ?? And for you information, there are plenty of 100 lb girls out there that will kick the crap out of ya. I should know, I was married to one, and she kicked my very fit 210 lb ass on more than one occasion. Anyways, she was tiny, always wore heels and no one every told her to smile or grabbed her or anything inappropriate. Not at the office, not at the gym, and not when she went out. It’s cause people can tell, maybe not even consciously, but they can tell who is going down with a fight and who is going to never say a peep.
I have also went out with a woman with no attitude and she got messed with all the time, from a cashiers to panhandlers to anyone who thought they could get away with it. It’s sad and I really tried to help her, but after a while it was just too much. People were always walking all over her for no other reason then she had the appearance of being weak. And I find myself unconsciously doing it at work from time to time. I ask so and so to do this for because I know they won’t object vs. asking someone else who is going to put up an argument as to why they can’t handle anymore work. We are all guilty of it and I think that is just human nature, there has to be a pecking order for things to remain balanced. Now I am not advocating any unwarranted anythings to woman, maybe just a simple explanation.
This doesn’t really fit in, but I want to say it. If I were to find myself in prison and someone forced my to give him head, I have two choices, comply and be his bitch for my remaining time, or bite that sucker off and possibly die. Guess what, I am biting that sucker off. Why, cause I would rather be dead that be some guys bitch and I would rather be dead than have dignity stripped so severely. OK, so that scenario doesn’t work for the whole sodomy issue, but you can bet your ass that someone will pay.
Anyways, the point I am getting at is it is attitude. It doesn’t mean nothing bad will ever happen, but it does mean that people will see what you project. And the chances of something bad happening are lower, much lower in my humble opinion. And to answer the question at hand, smiling isn’t going to make a damn bit of difference. And for you ladies, when someone demands you smile, you tell them I said fuck off creep.
A couple of side notes:
- That little girl that use to kick my ass is a very good friend of mine.
- I don’t do anything illegal, so prison isn’t something on my mind very often. And the only reason it’s in my mind is because I saw Shawshank Redemtion last night.
- I love when a woman smiles at me, but I don’t think it’s rude if she doesn’t, even if I do.
And last, but not least, GO ASTROS, GO PACKERS, GO TEXANS in that order.
I am out and thank you for your time.
I have one additional comment.
I think it extremely unfair for someone to say that because I joke around and say things to my male friends that I would never say to a woman, means I am not a feminist. Well I am not, but I am very sensitive to woman’s issues and goals.
I think the “double-life” argument is very weak. We all live multiple lives. If people were to interact the exact same way around everyone, things would get scary. Here are the different groups/people I act differently around:
- Parents
- Brother
- Co-workers
- Boss
- Girls
- Girl-friend
- Ex girl-friends
- My Boys
- Poker Buddies
- Neighbors
You get the point. And I don’t there is anything wrong with it, as a matter of fact, I don’t think any person could function in the real world without having “multiple lives”.
I think sometimes when you talk about feminism, there should be a litmus test. The test is does the particular argument hold true in situations beyond male/female. This one clearly doesn’t. I like the points made, I just don’t agree with this particular one. I shouldn’t have to act the same around my males friends as my female friends, why would I want to anyways. I mean when the guys are hanging around, we talk about stuff that would make Larry Flynt blush, but girls are the same way, my parents are probably the same way. That really is one of the basic reasons why humans develope friends, so they can exchange thoughts and idea and realize that everyone is just as screwed as they are some days.
Where I agree is when in public, now I unfortunately do not pass the litmus test. I have been in several situations lately, namely at a football game, when two of my friends were some very inappropriate things, no make it vulgar. Anyways, they were talking to each other, but I could tell several woman around could here bits and pieces. Anyways, I didn’t say anything and I should have. I was even thinking about dropping the one friend, but I think I will just be more… assertive next time. It’s hard, cause that really caught me off-guard and I was really sure how to handle it.
So my point is this, “Double-Life” in private good, “Double-Life” in public, not so good.
I know plenty of women who carry themselves confidently and they got harassed. The idea that some cretin can order you to smile–and getting pissy about it is seen as unreasonable–is a pretty telling sign of entitlement.
Quite a lot of psychopaths used rapport to get their victims’ confidence–think of Ted Bundy. Some freaks target women who they think will fight back. Some don’t. And some of the guys who have hassled the posters here weren’t serial killers, they were just drooling, overly-entitled morons who thought they had the right to a woman’s time and attention no matter what. Not smiling, not being approachable, keeps moronic twits like that at bay.
I’m sure that you truly believe that you’d rather die than be raped in prison, Scott. The thing is, you’ve never been faced with the situation, and you don’t know for sure. We can all imagine ourselves to be brave our tough (or afraid or frozen) in a particular situation. You don’t know what you’d do until–god forbid–it happens. You might very well fight them off/die trying. Or you might not. You might cry like a baby and beg for your life. Who are you to say?
Look, if you are going to dispense advice about how we can be safe through an attitude, read Gavin deBecker’s “The Gift of Fear.” And you may want to check your own attitude while you’re at it.
Scott, you write:
“If I were to find myself in prison and someone forced me to give him head, I have two choices, comply and be his bitch for my remaining time, or bite that sucker off and possibly die. Guess what, I am biting that sucker off. Why, cause I would rather be dead that be some guys bitch and I would rather be dead than have dignity stripped so severely. OK, so that scenario doesn’t work for the whole sodomy issue, but you can bet your ass that someone will pay.”
What a marvelous encapsulation of
1. masculine bravado
2. misogyny (Your telling use of the word “bitch” reveals your fear of being feminized)
3. homophobia
All in one paragraph!
Seriously, Scott, I hear what you are saying about different language in different situations. I say things candidly to my male friends that I would never blog about. But even as we delight in our maleness together, real men never use the objectification of women to cement that bond.
I think one of the things that got the misunderstanding under way was that two things got conflated–the specific debate over male entitlement to women’s smiles and the larger debate over why men are “guilty until proven innocent”. To say that one unfortunately must assume that all strange men are potential rapists and therefore take precautions not to be alone with a strange man is one thing. That real women’s experiences here back up the fact that attempted sexual assault is a common problem is part of all this. That some jerk tells you to smile is tangently related. The common thread is male entitlement.
Men who rape do so because they feel entitled to do so much of the time. I know that when someone tried to assault me and was successfully fended off, he let loose with a stream of invective about how I deserved it.
That’s a far more serious form of entitlement than feeling entitled to women’s smiles, of course, but I think that it’s important that it’s noticed across the board. No, they aren’t the same thing. But anything that contributes to the atmosphere of male privilege is something that feminism needs to chip away at.
Scott W: your post was one of the larger piles of crap I’ve had the displeasure of wading through in quite a while (sorry Hugo). Ever hear the phrase, “blaming the victim”?
I first experienced street harassment as a child (and no, I did not look even remotely “of age”). I’ve continued to experience it as an adult. It doesn’t happen all that often, but it still happens.
I don’t look or act like anyone’s idea of a victim. If anything, I project quite the opposite image—the same way my mother did (my earliest and best role model on street harassment). It still happened to her on occasion too. This flawed thinking that you’ve embraced is a dangerous stereotype, and a great illustration of being “part of the problem” rather than part of the solution. I’m tough, visibly athletic, tend to dress casual, walk with that “attitude” you speak of (I’m guessing, aggressive?), am constantly aware of my surroundings….and it still happens. What am I doing wrong? Simple. I have a vagina. It has nothing to do with real or imagined weakness (and neither does rape, by the way).
Image. That’s part of why I “out” myself as having experienced domestic violence…I want to demonstrate that this is something that affects many women, not just those that fit the T.V. stereotype.
Sheelebub made some excellent points. Street harassment is part-and-parcel of being a woman in this society.
Astarte, I don’t know why you have never been harassed. Maybe it’s a function of where you live, or where you travel. But now is the time to divest yourself of any idea that the rest of us are somehow doing something to get ourselves harassed. We aren’t being harassed because we’re (a) dressing in a provocative manner, (b) being too nicey-nice, (c) not being tough enough, (d) being too tough, (e) being too open, etc. etc. We are being harassed because we are women. Period. Your comment disturbs me. It came off (to me) as saying, “I’m not like the rest of you…I’m better! You’re just bringing all this on yourselves, girls!” Perhaps you’d like to come back and explain (unless, I’ve got your meaning pegged?).
Regarding geography: I don’t think there’s necessarily anything about big cities that encourages this sort of behavior; I think it’s largely a numbers game. I pass by thousands of people a day, because I’m living in a big city, taking public transport and walking on crowded sidewalks. There are just more chances that I’ll run into someone who reacts badly if I don’t smile. Is the percentage higher than in a small town? Probably not.
Tough call, zuzu. Part of why it might be lessened in a small town is because everyone knows everyone else, so you don’t have the protection of being a stranger to give you leave to harass.
But I’ll be damned if I wasn’t harassed all the time in my small town–but always by men driving by so fast you couldn’t see them.
Rape, however, is an utter nightmare in small towns. Even though women invariably can single out their attackers with no problem, in small towns everyone is likely to side with “our boys” against the slutty girls who should have known better. I can think off the top of my head of one situation where a woman was raped and left outside of town naked and had to walk back into town naked–my mother saw her first, thank god, and picked her up. But her attackers still got most of the town’s sympathy.
It’s not just about the immediate thread of violent attack (though that is a concern). It’s also about people (I’ve had both men and older women do this) thinking that a young woman’s purpose in public society is to be eye candy for any strangers who happen to be nearby. You know what, when I’m on a bus I could care less if the people around me are smiling or not. It’s just none of my freaking business. So for them to a) not only notice my facial expression, but b) feeling entitled to comment on it one way or another just adds insult to injury. Because their vocalization proves how incredibly arrogant they are in their sense of entitlement over me, a perfect stranger. It’s an invasion of privacy, pure and simple.
I’m not saying it’s wrong to look at other people – you can’t help it. But it is incredibly rude to brazenly own up to your voyeurism. Most polite people steal glances out of the corner of their eye and don’t own up to it. What if they were to say, instead of “smile”.. “hey, that’s a nasty zit you’ve got on your face!” or “why don’t you get a haircut” ?? We teach kids it’s not nice to stare. But what this behavior teaches is, it’s OK for adults to stare so long as a) the object is a woman; and b) you admit it?
Came here via Amp; thanks for a really interesting post and discussion.
Particularly in response to Kameron: I think it would be interesting to regard your anecdote from the opposite perspective. You say you were prepared to be friendly and approachable in Alaska because you knew people would stick up for you if there was trouble, but you’re not prepared to be approachable in Chicago or Durban because strangers will let you get raped and murdered and not lift a finger to intervene.
But it seems to me that you may have cause and effect reversed: could it be that if there is a general atmosphere where people are friendly and smile at eachother, it creates a sense of community so that people feel responsible for eachother? Whereas if everybody rushes past, eyes down, minding their own business, people feel no personal commitment to anyone else so if someone gets attacked then it’s still not their business.
I don’t know. I’m not blaming you, or men, or women, for the fact that many big cities lack that sense of community that I believe is the critical factor for personal safety. Just a thought.
I notice that in Scott’s little list dividing humans into nice discrete categories, there is no classification “women”, only “girls”. I think that pretty much says it all.
Scott, the fact that you believe that saying sexist/misogynist things when you’re along with the guys doesn’t make you misogynist yourself is one of the most stunning examples of doublethink I’ve seen in quite a while. It’s evident that you feel objectifying and/or insulting and dehumanising women is some sort of right that every male has, and that it is “unfair” of us to even crticise you for doing so.
You’ve got a long way to go before you are even remotely “sympathetic” to women.
Fascinating discussion. I live in NYC, don’t make a lot of eye contact with people, and feel not the slightest iota of guilt about that. I have been harrassed, followed, yelled at, and groped in my lifeâ€â€thankfully only a few instances, but one is too many.
But even if I hadn’t, it’s not my responsibility to make the world a better place with my *niceness* but with my refusal to accept or ignore such treatment. In the meantime, if I walk around with a frown, (or tell someone where to get off, or call the cops on them, or ignore them) it’s my right.
I have many male friends. I trust them, and know they are good and gentle people who respect women. They’ve earned my trust. Random guys on the street haven’t.
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According to the Associated Press:
>>Smile, and the world smiles with you… Well, except for 13 unhappy California employees of Safeway supermarkets. The 13 are suing the grocery store chain over its policy mandating that employees smile and be helpful to customers.
That policy draws frowns from the unhappy 13 clerks. “Let *me* decide who I am going to say ‘hello’ to with a big smile,” said one clerk, who complains she is sometimes propositioned by male customers who misinterpret her smile.
Well I never really expected to get this sort of a reaction, so I feel like I need to go person by person and explain what I meant and/or defend myself. This is a bit of a serious crowd. I doubt my advise mean much, but seriously relax, my intentions were good and even though my points were twisted a little, I have nothing but the utmost respect for woman. I love them, I love everything about them. I find them such a fascinating mix of beauty and mystery. They way they move and the way they just are. They are just that one thing in life that makes it so worth living. I would do anything humanly possible to keep my girl from having to suffer the in the slightest, corny but true.
Ya, ya, I know someone is going to have an issue with that I am sure, but I love woman and I never intended to offend as much as I apparently did. All I can say is in my defense is that woman like me too. I have a girlfriend and I am and will always be a one woman man, but “woman like me, cause I am good enough, I am smart enough, and people like me”. That from SNL, it’s a joke.
Sheelzebub – I think that my argument was quit clear, anything can happen anytime, anywhere. Your analogy doesn’t work, it’s Willie Horton again. I was talking about the majority of inappropriate behaviors towards women. Of course some guys like fighters, but most like passive targets. I think what people are forgetting is that guys do stuff like this because of their feeling of inadequacy with woman, so they don’t want the strong ones, the ones that are going tell them where to stick it, they want the ones who are passive, easy targets. The true is the same with most crimes, no wants to rob a store with Wild Bill behind the counter, or even burglarize a home with people present. Criminals, well most criminals, do not want to get caught. So the point I am getting to is that and it is offensive to me as well, but weaker woman are easier targets and easy targets are what these guys want.
Hugo – So can real women use objectification to keep men in that same cement ?? It’s a different sort of bond, but a bond non the less. Here is the idea: you can’t take anything, from anyone, they don’t give you. It’s easy for me to say that as a white male, but if someone calls me a Cracker or a Jew, it means nothing. I call myself cracker all the times, cause it funny, and because of my last name I get called Jew occasionally, which I find even hilarious because I’m German, but what in the hell do Texans know anyways. So if I call you a bitch, Hugh, it has no value unless you allow it to have value. See my point, objectivity only happens if the person allows themselves to be objectified.
Masculinity – Something I am proud of and something I am very good at. It’s what defines me, I am a man, and it is unfortunate that in today’s era of political correctness that white men are taking the wrap for a lot of stuff we didn’t do. I’m not saying that we don’t have it made, we do, but nothing would please me more than to have everyone and everything on equal ground. But unfortunately it’s not and I am getting a little tired at taking the blame for every retarded stunt some stupid ass cracker pulls.
Bitch – I didn’t realize that it revealed my fear of being feminized. I have lot to say a lot about this, first, the term bitch has come a long way. I call my male friends bitch all the time. It’s a way of taking some of the negative connotation out of words, plus it’s funny as hell. It’s a great thing to do with words, once you make them funny, the can’t hurt. The second part, I don’t have any fear of being feminized. I like being a man, I like being me, and no part of me wants to be feminized, it’s not my style. I am kind to everyone that deserves it and I don’t feel that I need to be feminized to make a woman feel like a woman.
Homophobia – What can I say, it’s a loaded assumption and I am sure that is why you put it on your list. I am not touching it, but let’s say you called me an alcoholic. I respond, I don’t have a drinking problem, I just have a drink to relax, you get the point. There are certain assumptions you can make about someone, that can not be refuted, because the denial actually leads to a deeper and deeper assumption of the original idea. For example, Hugh, you are a racist. Virtually impossible to talk yourself out of. I will say this, I respect all classes and segments of the population and I only fear violent ones.
La Luba – OK, this is a tough one, you made some great points, so please allow me to clarify. First, tell me this, why do some people, men and women, get routinely harassed and others never have an incident ?? I gave you my theory, my belief, I would like to hear yours or at least give me a well though argument as to why mine is weak. Arguing that you have this trait or that trait doesn’t count because all fat, balling, overweight men think they deserve supermodels. Your own self image isn’t a reasonable starting point. A trend is more accurate, your friends, do they all project confidence and are they all harassed ?? Anyways, I never meant to come across as saying you brought it on yourselves. I was offering my two cents on why it happens, I never claimed that I liked my conclusion. As a matter of fact I have said this to so many people, and I am quoting, “Why does 1% of the male population have to fuck it up for 99% of us.” And that goes to the guilty until proven innocent theory. Anyways, I wanted to clarify another point, someone can allow something to happen to them and not be at fault. When you are at fault, you are taking the responsibility, when you allow it you are simply recognizing the action and not reacting.
zuzu – I need to definitely clarify. The geography I was talking about wasn’t necessary urban/rural. I was thinking more like Orlando/Chicago. Sorry people, but I think Chicago is one of the unsafest cities I have ever visited. Felt like I was always looking over my shoulder. I am in Houston and do some pretty crazy stuff at some pretty crazy hours and my safety and my dates safety is never an issue. It might be a false sense of security, but that wasn’t my point. What I was saying is that some cities, towns, neighborhoods are simply safer than others.
MustangSally – Maybe those people starring aren’t thinking about your zit or your hair, maybe they are thinking ,damn that girl is beautiful, maybe I should talk to her, or maybe they are thinking, that girl looks just like my cousin, or maybe that girl sure can dress. I think you really made my point about attitude, you are assuming that everyone that stares is thinking something bad. I agree with you, starring is rude, but we have all done it and sometimes it’s just cause you are so far off in space that you don’t even realize what you are looking at.
What do you mean by “owning up to it” ?? Are you suggesting that I can’t even “steal a glance at you out of the corner of my eye”. Come on, I can glance at whomever I want to glance at. I am not trying to be rude, but you thought process is a little paranoid.
CrysT – Please just get over yourself. I am very sympathetic to all people, not just women. I would like to think that my sense of compassion is far and above most, and just because I don’t fit your mold, doesn’t mean it’s not true. Believe it or not, men and women are different, and when I say something that you find objectionable, doesn’t mean I am unsympathetic, it just mean you don’t agree. You would be hard pressed to find a woman that has an issue with being called a girl in Houston. “How are you girls doing tonight” vs. “How are you women doing tonight” So are you right and we are wrong ?? No, it just a matter of opinion. Now when I go back to my birthplace in WI, I use the term lady. And I am sure each region has it’s own dialect that people are comfortable with. Being sympathetic to woman does not mean agreeing with every feminist alive. You give me all this rhetoric about being sympathetic to woman, where are is your sympathy towards men, or are we all so evil and vile that we don’t deserve any.
Ok Scott, I’ll bite. My theory is that a woman’s likelihood of street harassment can be predicted by (a)where she lives, (b)the route she is taking from “point A” to “point B”, as well as what “point A” and “point B” are, and (c)mode of transportation. You can argue (d)age, as well, but I haven’t noticed any difference in the level or instances of street harassment since I’ve gone from 11 to 37 years old….but that’s just me.
I think cities, particularly cities that have a lot of commuters or transplanted residents who came from somewhere else (and may not be staying and putting down roots), are more likely to be sites of harassment. Jerks prefer anonymity.
The route you take from “point A” to “point B” is important. Obviously, if you take a route that has more people, your chances of being harassed increase. Certain locations are more likely sites of harassment. Bars. Corners where guys are just hanging out. Bus stops. Got the idea? If your route takes you to or past the “hot spots” for harassment, it increases your likelihood of being bothered by morons.
Walkers are more likely to be harassed than drivers. Bikers (bicycle, not Harley) are more likely to be harassed than drivers, but not as often as walkers. Women who use a lot of public transportation are more likely to be harassed than those who don’t. Walking and using public transportation keeps you “in the line of fire” longer. Harassment is usually spontaneous….a “window of opportunity” has to be there.
Now, get rid of the notion that jerks ‘target weak women’. They target women. Whoever happens to be in the line of fire. Sometimes, it happens to be me. Self-image? Bah. I’ve had literally hundreds of male fellow tradespeople tell me that I’m intimidating. I’m only 5′ 5″, so it’s not because I’m built like King Kong. Some of it is athleticism, some of it attitude, some of it no doubt decades of Hollywood imagery of the “tough, streetwise Italian chick”—a stereotype projected on to me (which can be alternately true/not true, if ya know what I mean). Look. Poor folks have their houses broken into, even more often than middle class or more well-to-do folks. Big, tough guys get mugged just as often as scrawny guys. And ‘tough-walkin’ tough-talkin’ women get street harassment from inconsiderate jerks just like demure women.
The most typical example in my life has been yelled B.S. from men in cars, while I’m on foot. Or sexual propositions, again, yelled from cars. “Heeeyyy, bay-bee!! Gimme a blow-job!!” and then driving off quickly, so I can’t (a)throw a large brick through their windshield and (b)can’t get a license plate number. This has even happened when I’ve had my daughter out in her stroller, for crying out loud!!
Some women might argue that age or blondness is a factor. I don’t know….maybe once you’re visibly elderly the harassment stops. I’ve got black hair, so I wouldn’t know about the blond…although some friends of mine have sworn that they get harassed more than I do because of it.
Point is, there is a certain level of harassment towards women that this society condones. Your post provides ample example. You’ve tried to move the parameters of the discussion towards “what are you girls doing to bring this on yourselves” as opposed to what Hugo was originally talking about at the start, which is “men need to take other men to task for this obnoxious behavior.” Think about this before responding.
“Or are we all so evil and vile that we don’t deserve any.”
And the winner for not reading goes to…
I could add my own dreary stories of getting told to ‘smile’—I’ve never been told to do so by a woman, ever, and I’ve never seen a man get told to do by another man—but what’s the point? The people who’ve experienced it will experience the frisson of memory. Scottw and a few others will whine about how unfair it is. And someone will say that because they’ve never experienced it, it doesn’t exist. Amazing arrogance, that.
Well, as someone else who lives in Houston, I have to disagree that it is hard to find a woman here who objects to being called a girl. I can think of many off the top of my head, starting with myself. I’ve never been much on being called a “lady” either, due to the implications of the term.
I think La Lubu’s analysis of what makes a woman more likely to be harassed is pretty accurate, although I would also include having an obviously broken down or stalled car along the road as another occasion when random harassment occurs. Walking alone as a woman in a city is definitely unpleasant. I am often grateful that I live in a city where everyone drives everywhere because of things said to me/shouted at me anytime I have tried to walk anywhere.
Being a woman in a sexist society can be very tiring. Just last weekend I was bothered by the only other customer in a Game Stop I went to and the clerks did nothing to stop it. In the end I fled the store without purchasing anything and vowed that I would never go into a small store like that one without a male escort again. But isn’t that a sad thing for me to have to decide? Why can’t I go to a game store by myself on a Saturday afternoon without being treated as though it were a singles bar?
Walking alone as a woman in a city is definitely unpleasant. I am often grateful that I live in a city where everyone drives everywhere because of things said to me/shouted at me anytime I have tried to walk anywhere.
It’s funny, my experience is, yes, I get harassed more in a city than I did in a college town or suburbs, but I also tend to feel safer walking at night because there just tend to be more people around. Some of the places I’ve felt most unsafe were in the suburbs — deserted parking lots and whatnot.
The whole argument that the difference between being harassed and not is “attitude” is bullshit. For starters, it ignores all the other factors that La Lubu brought up. But on a more basic level, it puts the onus on the person being harassed to change her behavior or attitude rather than on the harasser to stop harassing.
Good grief, I come back and La Lubu is telling me that because I don’t get harassed, I’m not a WOMAN, because WOMEN get harassed, and Crys T. is just plain telling me off. I guess I should be thankful that mythago hasn’t returned to tell me how much I ramble, or that I just don’t ‘get’ women.
Would someone like to take away my feminist credentials?
Let me ask you two questions, ladies:
1)If the person smiling at you happens to be female, are you more likely to smile back? If so, why?
2) I’ve lived in rural and suburban areas, I’ve taken the train, bus and walked. I’ve lived in the deep south (where I had to walk everywhere, and take the bus to further places), and southern california. I’ve lived in NW Washington, and Northern California. I’ve NEVER had issues with harassment. With all of your analysis, why do you think that’s so? Seriously, I want to know. Obviously, I’m not a woman because of it.
I did not question your femininity or feminist credentials; I stated that this is something that typically happens to women. From the words on this post, I think it’s fair to assume that it happens to more women than it does not.
Good for you that you don’t get harassed. I’m glad. But none of the rest of us should too, and I took your statement to be a reflection that harassment was something we were bringing on ourselves, rather than unwanted attention being foisted on us by ignorant jerks.
I tend to smile at anyone who smiles at me. When being ordered to smile, I don’t.
You still haven’t explained why you are not harassed, and the lion’s share of us are. I hold that none of us bring harassment on ourselves. You are not better than, more feminine than, classier than, or whatever, because you don’t get harassed.
I never said that I was any of those thing, La Lubu, you’re putting words in my mouth, and no, you never said *typically*, you said that women get harassed because they are WOMEN, with special emphasis on the ‘women’. That implies that, because I am not harasses, I am not a woman and am, of course, missing something.
I did say, however, that I wasn’t going to state why I think I don’t get harassed because I would surely get attacked for it, and I’ll stick to that. I won’t.
Everyone has made it perfectly clear to me that when they’re ordered to smile they don’t. I never advocated people smiling when they were ordered to smile, or smiling when they didn’t feel like it. Those words, just like the one that stated just because I’m not harassed and you are, I therefore must think that you deserve it, were put into my mouth. I never said that, and I certainly don’t believe it.
What I took exception to was, and I’ll say it again because no matter how many times I say it, people assume I’m saying something else, that the comments here are couching feminism in fear and violence attributed to men, and that is not the way to attain equality.
You’re about the closest to getting it right that I’ve heard so far. Those people are jerks. What they’re doing is rude. It would be rude if they were men, and it would be rude if they were women. We don’t need to over-analyze it and tell everyone it’s men’s patriarchal attitudes for the last 2,000 that make them rude. It would be rude, after all, if a woman did it, too.
Astarte: agreed. Presumptuous people who bark “smile” at strangers are rude whether they are women or men. Boorish individuals who shout sexual propositions from behind the seat of their cars are obnoxious pusbags regardless of gender. Apparently, you misinterpreted what I meant when I was stressing ‘woman’ (I was originally speaking to ScottW. when using that phrase, and it carried over), and I apparently misunderstood you when you stated that you know why you don’t get harassed but you’re not going to bring it up. Fair enough? I will respect your privacy.
But, the fact is…women are not generally the total strangers who will get in one’s face and tell one to “smile”. There are obnoxious women who will yell stuff at guys on the street (I’ve had union brothers tell me of instances of this), but the overwhelming occurence of vulgar street harassment is not coming from women (nor do men have to fear rape from women, so that factors in).
It is not fundamentally unfeminist to recognize that violence from strangers tends to flow more (much more) in the direction of men to women, rather than the other way around. We each bring our own experiences to the table, and many of our sisters are bringing the experience of attacks, assault, stalking, and rape to their table. They didn’t want to bring it there. But, they don’t have a choice. We are talking about survival mechanisms, many of which are involuntary. My ex-husband kicked in the door of my apartment in 1993, at 4AM. He had a heavy policeman’s type (size of baton) flashlight with him that he hit me in the head with repeatedly, and he had knives with him—his objective was to stab me to death in my sleep. Obviously, he didn’t succeed. I am not afraid of men in general (I couldn’t work at my job if I was!), but I still, to this day, sleep light. This is the Gift of Fear that Gavin DeBecker talks about in his book. When it comes to personal safety, we are at our safest when we are following our own instincts, our own experiences, setting our own boundaries and comfort-level zones.
(now, back to our regularly-scheduled all-about-me section!) In my experience, about half the men who’ve told me to smile have carried a real strong creepy vibe with them…the ‘smile’ line had nothing to do with hail-fellow-well-met, and a lot to do with your-place-or-mine? The other half were probably just unconsciously following a social script…kinda like talking about the weather. I’ve been told I ‘look mean’. Honestly, I don’t have the muscle coordination it takes to frown…but in my ‘neutral’ expression, my lips have a slight downward tilt at the sides. I’m tired of being told to smile; thankfully it doesn’t happen all that often, now that I’m a mother (when folks see you with a child, somehow they just assume you’ve got enough on your plate).
I think it says something that’s worth a little analysis when men are telling women to smile. I asked my brothers around the jobsite if anyone’s ever told them to smile; they looked at me like I grew two heads, and said, “are you kidding?” I think the practice speaks to entitlement. I think it speaks to insensitivity to the experience of women (the reasons why so many women are reluctant to speak to male strangers). In other words, I think Hugo’s post was right on point. I don’t want men to feel any generalized fear or guilt towards women (and in any case, I haven’t seen a whole lot of that in action); what I’d like to see more of is men examining their social scripts. Taking concrete steps to take action against their practices that might be oppressive, and holding other men accountable. Guilt is not a strong motivator for anything except denial. But the status quo isn’t going to change unless it’s questioned. It is not unfeminist to take even small examples of privilege to task. It might spark some recognition. Might spark some change.
I think more importantly, it’s not *men* who the ones told to smile. While a higher percentage of men are the enforcers of proper female behavior, god knows there are women who enforce it, too. It’s a delicate balancing act we feminists have to play–if you don’t remind everyone all the time that patriarchy isn’t men vs. women so much as a cultural hierarchy that put men above women, then it’s just a matter of time before someone thinks you’re man-hating.
Scott, for a minute there I completely lost what you were talking about. It seemed like you were talking about ordinary human women, then you veered off into being a Discovery channel narrator for a documentary on tigers: “The beauty and the mystery of the tiger has attracted men’s attention for thousands of years….”
Amanda,
Who knows what I meant, I was trying to wrap it up Friday before I left work.
And for real, I am not talking about this anymore, it went from smiling to attempted murder.
I can argue smiling and jerks in the street, but I am not going to get into a discussion about hard core psychopaths.
Scott
Oh, which is why you told us that we bring trouble on ourselves for acting weak (after assuring us that really, your female friends think you’re a swell guy)?
Give me a break, Scott.
Scott – you missed my point bigtime, and at the same time proved the point many here are making. It doesn’t matter *what* the person staring is thinking. Frankly, I’d be 1000 times more comfortable with the guy staring at the big fat zit on my face than the guy thinking I’m beautiful – precisely because as YOU JUST SAID – if they’re thinking that, then they ARE very likely also thinking “damn, maybe I should talk to her” (the subtext of which is… damn, I’d sure like to have me some of that fine ass – wonder what she’d feel like as I f**k her) …like you have every freaking right in the world to just walk up to a strange girl and engage her in conversation because looking at her gives you a warm, tingly feeling ‘down there’. Even though she’s given you no indication whatsoever that she would be open to your approach. Even though you KNOW that even though you might be harmless, she does not know that – and there are enough men out there who DO pose a danger to her that your approaching her in this manner is more likely to scare her then endear you to her.
Sure, they could be thinking “that girl looks just like my cousin”, but they could also be a psychopath thinking “that girl looks like that little bitch who rejected me in college”. Serial killers frequently transfer their anger from someone they know to their victims, who are strangers – based only on a ‘look’.
They might be thinking “that girl sure can dress”… but they might also be a religious wingnut who is thinking “that little slut – how dare she dress like a Jezebel and *make* me get all hot and horny! I need to teach her a lesson!”
Nobody here believes that *all* men think these terrible things, least of all me. Nobody is accusing you, personally of being a serial rapist/killer. We’re just asking you to put yourself in the shoes of a woman for a minute and try to understand the general state of wariness we feel as we try to go about our daily lives. If you would sit down and watch your 6:00 local news over the course of a week and count the number of stories about women getting abducted, raped and killed you would understand there are enough men out there who DO think like this to make it only common sense to raise a red flag when some stranger approaches you in a manner that rudely invades your personal boundaries.
We warn kids about ‘stranger danger’ all the time. Are parents who instruct their kids to ignore the “nice man” asking them to help find a puppy paranoid, too? No. They’re just being better safe than sorry. Yet, the rate of kids who get abducted by strangers is infintessimal compared to the rate of women who get attacked by strangers/ acquaintances. But you’re saying we’re paranoid to be careful? If there were 5-8 stories a week on the news about psychopathic women who stalk strange men, then castrate and kill them in cold blood I think you’d change your tune pretty damned quick. You’d quit smiling at pretty women on the bus, do everything in your power to avoid eye-contact and start thinking “I wonder if she can fit a knife in that purse?” instead. Say those stories mentioned the male victims targeted all wore button-down shirts and a tie. If a strange woman complimented you on your tie then got pissed when you refused to talk to her, and then followed you when you got off that bus – you’d freak out a little, too.
It’s not like most women walk around in a constant state of fear and think every man they meet is a potential attacker. But you watch for signs, and take precautions accordingly. Just like if it looks like it’s going to rain, you grab an umbrella on your way out the door. And what we’re telling you is – invasion of personal boundaries by a stranger is definitely one of those signs. Rude and aggressive behavior is one of those signs. Staring is rude and aggressive. Demanding that someone change their facial expression is rude and aggressive. Just ask Miss Manners.
Feel free not to get into a discussion of psychopathic killers. You have that option. You never have to worry about them because the chances of YOU being targetted by one are slim to none. Women, however do not have that luxury.
But if you ever found yourself going to prison – you’d be more than a little concerned if someone on the prison bus mentioned that you looked like their cousin and then asked you to smile, wouldn’t you?
My father had to take a sexual harrassment course at work (some guy at his job was accused of harassing a woman, so part of the response by management was to have everyone take this course and test); some of the questions regarded unwanted attention from men to women, like staring, following, standing too close, etc. (nothing directly about telling women to smile!). The section these questions were in was titled “Differences in Perception”. The answers (about whether a certain behavior was a problem or no problem) referenced statistics on assault of women as being a reason for the difference in perception between what a man might feel as harmless attention and what a woman may feel is problematic.
That this is given as a standard reason in run-of-the-mill sexual harrassment prevention programs speaks to the fact that female apprehension is more than mere paranoia.
MustangSally,
I was trying to get out of this because it is getting to the point of ridiculous. But I must defend myself.
First you say “Nobody is accusing you, personally of being a serial rapist/killer.” But you repeatedly use the term ‘You’. “like you have every freaking right in the world to just walk up to a strange girl and engage her in conversation.” That might not be accusing me of being a rapist/killer, but it sure as hell is an accusatory statement. And for your information, I do have the right to walk up to a stranger and engage them in conversation, man or woman. Jesus Sally, that would limit ones contact to family and co-workers, both of which I am not really that particular fond of. Not engaging strangers in conversation sounds really.. it’s really sad that you think this way. I like talking and I think it is rude to be in a group of people and not engage in some sort of conversation. Be it a bus, or an elevator, or the post office. Humans like to interact and the fact that you think we should be changing that aspect of human nature is something I will never agree with.
And just because I am thinking that a woman looks beautiful, does not mean “the subtext of which is… damn, I’d sure like to have me some of that fine ass – wonder what she’d feel like as I f**k her”. That is coming out of your warped mind. But for the sake of argument, let’s say that the thought did cross my mind, so what. Like you never looked a guy up and down and thought the same thing. It’s called the human mind, and it is processing and computating all kinds of crazy stuff. What does that have to do with anything. You have somehow bridged the gap between thinking and acting. I would like to smack my boss and girlfriend from time to time, but guess what, I never have, and I never will. You do not have any right to condemn people for what they are thinking, because it is virtually impossible for you to know what a stranger is thinking. Unless of course you are clairvoyant, and if that is the case, let’s stop because you already know who is and who isn’t going to harm you. So back to reality, you are not clairvoyant, so you do not know what people are thinking. Then why are you assuming that everyone is thinking bad things about you ?? Hard to say, but generally people that think people are thinking bad things about them are thinking bad thoughts about others. Not a fact, but a reasonable conclusion. You are definitely a doom and gloom person and that’s fine if that’s what you like, but what isn’t fine is projecting you doom and gloom unto the whole male species. Then bridging the gap from thought to action, like we have no control, like that jump is something we do as easily as walking.
The chances of a psychopathic killer targeting me are slim to none, the chances of one targeting you are slim to none as well. Sally quit watching the news, because it is no longer news, it is sensationalism. That means the more thrilling they make it, the more viewers will watch it. The odds of you getting killed by someone you know well or a family member are around 10 to 1 of getting killed by a total stranger. I don’t know the rape stats, but I would imagine they are roughly the same. And I think it safe to assume that guys are generally more inappropriate with woman they know then strangers So think about that, the odds of you getting mistreated by a male are far greater to happen by someone you know, rather than a stranger you just smiled at. The difference is the media, mostly local news, has manipulated people into thinking that at any second they could be a victim. Which is true, the difference is the “news” makes the odds seem much greater than they actually are. Every single girl (woman for the PC police) I have had any sort of relationship with has been raped. Not one by a stranger. I would imagine that this sort of stat isn’t that uncommon. My point is if you are going to view male inappropriate behavior on a logical scale, then women should not only quit smiling at strangers, they should quit smiling at men they knowas well, including there fathers. And that is ridiculous. It is also ridiculous to think that smiling is going to increase you chances of getting mistreated, I would think quit the opposite. And I would imagine Miss Manners would agree Sally. Hey, you brought her up.
And I apologize for abbreviating you name, but I really didn’t feel like writing MustangSally every time I mentioned you name.
One last thing, anyone wanting to continue this argument email me because I am having a hell of a time finding this page and I can’t bookmark it.
ScottW – scottw714@hotmail.com
I am sincerely tired of the argument that says, in effect, that if a woman takes precautionary steps to protect herself and reduce her chances of being harassed and/or victimized….that it’s “pandering to fear” or “paying too much attention to the media” or “playing the victim”, or “letting fear rule your life” or…pick your poison.
When people roll their windows up, lock their car doors, pop the removable car radio face off, or even go to the extent of installing a steering wheel boot (I saw a lot of that in Chicago), we do not call them paranoid. We call this “avoiding car break-ins and/or theft”.
When people close the windows and lock the doors to their home when they leave, we call that “prudent” or “smart”. If they have an alarm system installed, we call that “even smarter.” When people leave their home for several days and tell neighbors to watch the house, notify police of their absence, and have their mail and newspaper held, we say, “that’s the way to do it.”
So, why is it that when women refrain from engaging strangers in speech or smiles, that is called “paranoid”? Just about every women’s self-defense class recommends this, just about every book or piece of literature on women’s safety that is written by experienced law enforcement or other personal safety experts recommends this practice. Many women here have said that its irritating to be told to smile; some women have related stories about unwanted attention that became stalking, that could possibly have developed into assault if they didn’t have either good luck or the intervention of strangers on their side.
Again, it’s interesting that when gender-neutral forms of self-protection and defense are used, it’s “street-smart”, but when female-specific forms of self-protection and defense are used, it’s “paranoid”. Interesting, no?
La Luba,
Let me get this straight, virtually every piece of literature and class concerning a woman’s personal safety suggests women should not talk to strangers.
I don’t believe, not for a minute.
There is a definite difference between being paranoid and being safe. I have a great example, one of my coworkers has told me he has at least one loaded gun in each room of his household. He and his wife had to fire their maid because she actually had the nerve to bring her kid with her one time. Kids and guns don’t mix the theory being. Is this being safe or is it being paranoid ?? Merriam’s defines paranoid as being extremely fearful. So as much as I hate to say it, my coworker and friend is paranoid. I asked him once why him and his wife both need access to a loaded gun in there main living area, and he told me in case someone kicks the door in or breaks through a window. Sad huh ??
Anyways, I am way off track. What I had said to Sally, was not walking down a dark alley is being safe, thinking every man was a piece of her fine ass is paranoid. Her words, not mine. If you feel more secure not smiling at strangers and not talking to them, be my guest. But don’t be offended when someone else who doesn’t share your no contact rule, makes contact. But if you think every stranger is out to hurt you, then yes, La Luba you are being paranoid.
Off the topic. I find it fascinating and disturbing at the same time the correlation between TV local news watchers and fear. Every single person I know that watches the local news is very fearful of what could happen at any given moment. I think Moore made this argument, somewhat, in his Bowling movie. I am not a researcher or even have access to the data, but from my own observations local media has seriously been influencing people behavior in a very bad way. I never ever, ever, watch the local news because it is crap. It’s amazing the difference between picking up a paper and watching the news on TV. Both are media news outlets, yet one always forgets this or that detail or focuses on one particular aspect. I get the same news, yet I am never fearful, which brings me to my second theory.
Weak minded people get their news from the TV. Maybe I am wrong about the effects of the local television news has on people, maybe it’s the actual people watching the news. Why does anyone prefer TV news over reading, because it easy, there is absolutely no work involved. Whatever you are watching is spoon fed, and the conclusions are either spoon fed or made so apparent, that the actual though process’ needed are minimal. Just a theory and I really haven’t given it that much thought, but is worth thinking about.
Just so there is no confusion, I do watch my share of TV, just not the news.
Scott, is English your first language? Because this:
First you say “Nobody is accusing you, personally of being a serial rapist/killer.” But you repeatedly use the term ‘You’. “like you have every freaking right in the world to just walk up to a strange girl and engage her in conversation.” That might not be accusing me of being a rapist/killer, but it sure as hell is an accusatory statement.
shows a real lack of understanding that “you” can be used as a general pronoun rather than a specific one.
And for your information, I do have the right to walk up to a stranger and engage them in conversation, man or woman.
What you have is the right to attempt to engage any stranger in conversation. You do not have the right to pursue the conversation if the other person does not wish to participate in it.
But don’t be offended when someone else who doesn’t share your no contact rule, makes contact.
It’s not “my” no-contact rule. It’s not even a no-contact rule. It’s a very old-fashioned tradition, as Miss Manners fans know, that it’s rude for a gentleman to start up a ‘friendly’ conversation with a lady he does not know; and it’s very modern to realize that women do not exist for your social-interaction pleasure, and to react with grace if a woman does not choose to respond to your overtures.
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Boo-hoo. Women don’t smile at you. That’s not the problem. The problem is that most men don’t recognize when a woman is actually interested in them. They don’t know the subtle body language signals that women master easily. The solution for men is simple: only go after women who show signs of interest in you. If men were smarter about body language, they wouldn’t waste their time pursuing women who aren’t interested, and women would be less pissed off and more approachable to non-romantic gestures like smiling and inncocent conversation. Men need to get a clue and not waste their time and the time of women who aren’t interested. Lastly, if a woman doesn’t smile at you–for whatever reason–so what? That’s her problem, not yours. You’re just being a nice guy and a decent human being. If she wants to be a sourpuss, let her. I meet women all the time who smile back, sometimes flirt, and are warm and open. They are out there. The trick is to identify them and not worry about the cranky types who won’t smile back. Good luck.
yeah, the thing is, do you know how much toil it is to have to be the kind of woman that educates continually, but never finds that golden boy who gets it already, who doesn’t then require years to assimilate this and end up hopefully a warm non- machismo sweet sensible giving hot dude?
let me tell you, being a feminist is no aid it usually feels like in getting one of those who is already, because there just aren’t that many out there. and the leftovers are usually attracted not to actual qualities of a woman who respects learning about this stuff and represents… but instead seems to be attracted to whatever thing created the chemistry with his mom, who did not nec. grow up respecting herself in a similar way. A true test of a good guy can be if he respects women that don’t shave. Because those types usually have an orientation to gender politics and are thinking. of course it can not be the only test, they could be abusive or controlling just like any other person….
alot of women in the past have shied away from calling themselves feminist because it sounds like it will make them unattractive to guys, and most women choose dating over friends in an unspoken subtle way, because guess what ? society all teaches us the order of who to ally ourselves with to feel like we have a fighting chance to get love, and survive our peers endless pressures and internal insecurities.
so my point was, you haven’t learned the whole lesson until you find away to direct the credit and hot quality, to the women who took the time out to teach you at their OWN sacrifice.
take a moment to appreciate and revervently send your best wishes to females trying to do it, despite the hard road.
This made my day,
It is so wonderful to hear a male’s perspective and how he was able to change it for the better
Thankyou.
Scanning this thread for the first time, I notice a recurring theme of disbelief that being friendly could have bad results. I now live in a medium-sized western town after growing up in big eastern one, but I learned quickly as a teenager on city streets not to have any “personal” expression at all. I was followed, accosted, even stalked on several occasions before I thoroughly learned this.
Here in the west, I had an interesting conversation with a guy at a party–no big deal–just a conversation about historical eras. I studied history. I like it. When he found out it was just a conversation and I was married he was really angry. Not the first time this kind of thing, but thankfully one of the last.
I was brutally reminded of this on a recent trip to my old home city–on a really hot afternoon I was sweaty in the subway in a skirt, sandals and sleeveless shirt with my “approachable” western face on. An older man in a suit walked came up–it took me a minute to realize what he wanted. He thought I was a prostitute.
I really hear this one. I was often ordered to smile (usually by men, sometimes by older women) when I was a college student. It would happen when I was walking down the street minding my own business or walking across campus minding my own business.
It made me feel surprised and shocked, and intruded upon.
The reason why I wasn’t already smiling had nothing to do with looking tough or having any fear of anyone whatsoever, I avoided places I thought were dangerous. Rather I was minding my own business and my own thoughts and was relaxed and nonchalant. It would never occur to me in a million years to smile continuously. Imagine constantly reminding yourself to walk around smiling? Come on!
When I look at most other people, women and men, most of the time most of them have a relaxed neutral expression on their faces when they are by themselves going about their business. I would expect nothing else.
How would you feel if you were ordred to smile, any of you who disagree that it’s rude? What does it mean to you? Would you obey if ordered to smile, by a woman or a man? Should grumpy looking or overly cool looking men be ordered to smile and expected to obey?
I was personally never sure if it was a male female thing or not. The implication seemed to be that I was doing something wrong by NOT grinning my a** off every minute of every day, and I couldn’t figure it out.
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I have to say, that I could not agree with you in 100% regarding at Hugo Schwyzer, but it’s just my opinion, which could be wrong