Regarding the David Allen appointment, I’m quoted in this morning’s Scott Jaschik piece at InsideHigherEd. I’ve got more thoughts about men teaching women’s studies (and, in my case, a straight man teaching lesbian and gay history), but that will have to wait.
Complete shift of topic:
I heard from a former student the other day wanting a bit of advice. Her boyfriend recently left her, ending a two-year relationship. The reason? He couldn’t "handle" her sexual past. When they started dating, he was a virgin, while she had had a modest number of sexual partners (she didn’t specify a number to me.) Their relationship had been going along swimmingly until that fateful day when he chose to ask her "So, how many men have you slept with?" She chose to answer truthfully, and things were never the same. For the remaining months of their relationship, he alternated between pestering her for details of her past, and calling her a "slut". (Why she put up with such demeaning and inappropriate behavior is another topic altogether.) Finally, unable to cope with the truth of the disparity in their experiences, he dumped her. She was devastated.
Over the years, I’ve thought quite a bit about the phenomenon of sexual jealousy. I respect its power. Without any verifiable evidence, however, I have my own theory on the subject of men’s obsession with women’s purity. It’s hardly an original one, but here goes: men are terrified of two things, I think. One (and this is probably a hold-over from our ancestors), men are scared that if women are not virgins on their wedding night and faithful ever after, they will be unable to know with certainty if they are really the fathers of their own children. In a world withoud DNA testing, fathers have precious little assurance that their children are really theirs. (Of course, they could simply trust their wives, but that would involve making one’s emotional wellbeing dependent on a woman!) The "double-standard" thus serves to protect men from the awful, nagging doubt that a child is not their own.
Male sexual anxiety seems to play a part as well. I’ve heard from many, many women whose boyfriends or husbands seemed stunningly preoccupied with comparisons. After all, the more lovers a woman has had, the greater the number of other men to which a current beau can feel himself compared. As one man put it to me bluntly, years ago, "If you marry a virgin, Hugo, you’ll be guaranteed to be the best f@*k she’s ever had." Charming, huh? Nothing seems to threaten an insecure man like the possibility of being found "less than" compared to other males. Female purity, therefore, seems to be an effective tool for safeguarding the male ego.
This latter theory plays well with what I’ve written about before, Michael Kimmel’s notion of homosociality. (Homosociality is the idea that men are more concerned with winning the approval of other males than of women. Men measure their worth according to standards set by other men, not by women). Accordingly, many men who are in relationship with heterosexually experienced women may find themselves competing with all of her previous lovers. Indeed, this sense of competition often seems to happen even when the woman involved is scrupulous about not making such comparisons herself. But, if one buys into the notion of homosociality, it doesn’t matter much what the woman thinks; the man will be competing with her past lovers in his head, even if no such rivalry is taking place in hers. After all, he isn’t really after her validation; his real goal is to prove himself "better than" those she’s been with previously. And while some men might find that competition exhilarating (and many more women find it bewildering and exhausting), other men may find it terrifying. And let’s face it: it’s a lot easier to call one’s girlfriend a "slut" than it is to acknowledge one’s own sexual anxieties.
On the subject of one’s sexual past, I’ve become a great believer that no one should ever ask — or answer — the question "So, how many people have you slept with?" (Let me clarify: I don’t mean one shouldn’t tell one’s good friends — just not one’s partner.) Answering a request to reveal one’s number rarely turns out well, especially for women. For more conservative (and insecure) men, any number higher than "zero" will be too high; whether it’s five or fifty or five hundred, she may pay a high price for answering truthfully! To be fair, some women are also going to be unnerved by what they may regard as an "inappropriately high" number. The only rational response to such a query from a current or prospective partner is a gentle, loving "Tell me why you really want to know, and tell me what you’re going to do with this information once you have it."
I recognize that we’re all curious people. Folks like to talk about "the number"; I’ve posted on this before. But I’m a very strong believer that we all have the right to have had a past, and to have that past without apology. Mind you, this is not an argument against pre-marital chastity! Those who, for spiritual reasons, choose to remain virgins until the wedding night do not deserve our scorn. In certain instances, they may even merit our admiration. But those who, for whatever reason, have not "waited" deserve not to be shamed by their current partners.
It is possible to have a loving, honest relationship without disclosing every detail of one’s sexual history to one’s current partner or spouse. Indeed, I suspect it’s a sign of high maturity and self-confidence not to ask for details of one’s lover’s past! A true lover can say, "Before there was an ‘us’, there was a ‘you’ and a ‘me’, and I will never use what you did in the past against you. I honor your right to have lived the life you chose to live before we were together, and I ask that you honor my right to my past as well." True love focuses on the joy of the present and a shared commitment to the future; it seldom dwells on the past. There are times when a focus on the past matters; a history of abuse or molestation can have huge ramifications for one’s future sex life, as can certain sexually-transmitted infections. But with those caveats, I think it’s safe to advise a policy of "Don’t ask, don’t tell, don’t pursue."
When we marry, we promise each other many things: fidelity, devotion, and a willingness to share all one has. For many of my generation who come to the altar after years and years of "experience", we perhaps ought to give another kind of pledge: the promise to focus on the future together, not on the past. Real love rejoices in all the things that have made one’s husband or wife who he or she is today, knowing that without those experiences he or she would be a fundamentally different person. But despite the often overwhelming temptation to pry, I’m convinced the wisest course is to acknowledge that there are some things none of us need to know, and we can give our partners and spouses the gift of an uncondemned, unchallenged, unquestioned past.
Postscript: I realize that I haven’t mentioned how this intersects with faith. That’s probably another post in and of itself, but let me say this for now: from a spiritual standpoint, there’s a huge difference between holding oneself to a high standard and expecting that same standard from everyone else. A good Christian might well desire to be a virgin on his or her wedding night; it doesn’t follow that a good Christian has a right to demand that his or her spouse have an equally low level of sexual experience. I know quite a few Christian couples where one partner was a virgin, and the other wasn’t. This often happens when a "cradle Christian" marries an adult convert; new Christian Lauren Winner writes quite honestly about this when she talks about the disparity in experience between herself and her lifelong believer husband. Indeed, it’s a particularly Christian act of love to marry someone who has had a colorful and extensive past when one hasn’t had one oneself. It’s even more Christian to never condemn that past, and to never allow the spectre of past lovers to haunt the marriage bed.
I think there’s a bit more to it than simply the desire for known paternity and the fear of comparison. I think there’s an aspect of homosocial status in men’s choice of partners, with the perception being that a woman who has not had sex with anyone else is more affirming of a man’s desirablity (and worth) than a woman who has had other sexual partners. I think our current lack of adequate sex education leads men to believe that sex with a virgin is going to be qualitatively better, while keeping them in a state of ignorance that all but ensures it will be worse. There’s also the fear of sexual incompatibility – that the partner with more experience is less invested emotionally and is more likely to leave or cheat (reinforced by a cultural equation of sexual activity and immorality), or that a more experienced partner is going to want things that a less experienced partner may not be comfortable with or skilled at.
I don’t think concealing one’s past in that respect is the solution; indeed, for some people (e.g., those with STDs) that is not an option. Indeed, I think that for a lot of people, the problem isn’t that they know too much about their partner, but that they don’t know enough, which leads them to fill in the gaps with the worst case scenario. Making the past one big gap doesn’t seem to be preferable to me. That’s not to say that nothing’s off-limits; I do my best to respect the privacy of others even as I try to be open about my own past.
You should remind that charming gentleman that if you marry a virgin, you will also be guaranteed to be the worst f@*k she’s ever had.
Fantastic post, Hugo. I think the paternity thing is a bit of BS used to cover the actual cause of jealousy–the male competition thing. Every man I’ve ever known to get over this issue only did so by being honest with himself about that aspect.
Of course, it doesn’t hurt to, at the opportune time, dramatically state, “I never even knew it could be so good!” Worries about inadequacy thereby vanquished.
I love this post, Hugo.
I guess being “the best f@*k” a virgin has ever had doesn’t strike me as much of a compliment to the man. But OK, some men need their delusions I guess.
My husband wisely decided to never ask me that question. Well, he asked once and quickly took it back saying that “it just doesn’t matter” so why bother asking.
My advice for your former student? She’s better off without this guy. Anyone calling their partner a “slut” is showing a level of disrespect and a lack of genuine love (not to mention emotional maturity) that should make any sensible person run away as fast as their feet can carry them.
One question for everyone here – do adults actually play the “what’s your number” game? I had thought that this particular piece of foolishness stopped some time in the very early twenties at the latest. Are people in their late twenties or even thirties still doing this? I would have liked to think that most people got over the worse of their sexual insecurities by tht point.
You bring up some interesting points, but even after all that I still think it’s best to be honest about one’s past in a relationship. Frankly, if a woman is dating a man who really can’t handle the idea of her having had sex with others in the past (or having had more partners than he feels is appropriate), I think she’s better off finding out about it. Sure, it might hurt, but it’s better than spending her life wondering if her partner might call her a “slut” or leave her if he ever found out the details of her past, isn’t it? Past relationships shape the people we become– like it or not, they’re part of who we are, and if you aren’t certain that you can trust someone with the entirety of who you are, you should not be in a serious relationship with that person. Be honest, and if they can’t deal with it, you’re better off without them– for me, it’s that simple.
And coming at it from the opposite perspective (because yeah, even though I’m not a guy, I’ve been there), one can be curious about one’s partner’s past without intending to judge the partner for it or “use it against them.” If I’d abided by the “don’t ask, don’t tell” rule, I’d probably still be freaking out about some situations I had the wrong idea about from the limited amount of information I accidentally stumbled upon, and it might have really damaged my relationship. Instead, I asked about the things that were bothering me and found out they really weren’t as big a deal as I thought they were, and I managed to come to terms with the jealousy and insecurity I had at first. Perhaps a more mature, self-confident person wouldn’t have needed to pursue that information, but what can I say– none of us are perfect, and I think each of us need to handle these situations in the way that’s best for us.
(There’s also a bit of a logistical problem with the “keep your past a mystery” bit– what about the many people who still have some sort of contact with their past boyfriends/girlfriends? If one’s going to pursue active friendships with one’s exes, I think it could be far worse to pretend they’re just like any other friend than to be honest with one’s current partner about their past together romantically/sexually. Maybe that’s just my insecurity coming out again, but if I was dating someone who carried on friendships with other women and was evasive about whether or not he’d dated them, I’d be a lot more worried that something was going on than if he told me “yeah, we were together, but now we’re just friends.” I know you’ve said in the past that you don’t necessarily think it’s appropriate to pursue such friendships, Hugo, but they do happen, and in those situations I think honesty is absolutely necessary.)
One question for everyone here – do adults actually play the “what’s your number” game?
Never underestimate people’s willingness to act like immature idiots.
But if someone asks for your “number” and you want to shock them, say, “Aw, I lost count a long time ago.”
Well, I always ask for the number in regards to the STD question. It’s not so much that I care about the actual number, but more to the point that I care about if he has any diseases floating around, and if the guy is a non-virgin, my next question immediately becomes “Did you use protection and have you been tested”? If the answer is “no” to both, then no sex happens.
I don’t think this is purely a male phenomenon. The first guy I ever slept with had 10 before me, and I was hoping not to come up short on his sexual experience. Of course, my method of dealing with it was to have lots and lots of sex until I figured out what he liked rather than calling him a “man-whore”, but that’s just me personally.
If a woman truly makes her partner feel like number 1 in the sack, then he won’t feel the need to ask how many there were. Not to mention the fact that his self confidence will inspire him to reach higher plateau’s in his partner’s pleasure, as at that point he is simply competing with himself to beat his personal record and become a better man in his own eyes. Atleast that’s how I personally feel about it.
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“Never underestimate people’s willingness to act like immature idiots.
But if someone asks for your “number” and you want to shock them, say, “Aw, I lost count a long time ago.”
There I go again expecting people to act like reasonable adults. Just call me the eternal optimist.
Funnily enough the last person to ask me the “number” question (who was only 21 at the time so I’ll cut him some slack, even though I’m married and he’s just a friend so I’m not sure why he needed to know anyway)responsed to my quite accurate response with “I don’t believe you, women always lie about their number”. If you’re not going to believe the answer why ask the question in the first place?
I think the anxiety/performance fear thing has a lot to do with it, although I have real doubts about the homosociality idea:
it doesn’t matter much what the woman thinks; the man will be competing with her past lovers in his head, even if no such rivalry is taking place in hers. After all, he isn’t really after her validation; his real goal is to prove himself ‘better than’ those she’s been with previously.
But how is he to prove himself “better” other than through her validation? The two halves of the argument – it’s not important what she thinks and he wants to prove himself better than her previous lovers – can’t both be true.
Rather, I think the difficulty lies in that even if she swears he’s the best ever, he very possibly won’t believe her; he’ll be convinced she’s just saying it to make him feel better. In fact, he may accuse her of having said the same to all her previous lovers. The social demands on men to always “succeed,” always “win,” carry real costs, one of which can be a constant sense of failure, of inadequacy. That is, it’s less that he has to prove himself “better” than he has a sneaking fear that he simply can’t measure up.
Aa a sidelight, I remember an episode of the old “Mary Tyler Moore” show, which I know reveals my age. Lou Grant had gotten involved with a woman who Mary got to know and who, she discovered, had had an interesting life. After his male co-workers tease him about being with a woman who’s “been around,” Lou breaks it off.
Later he goes to find her and confesses that
“It’s not your past that’s bothering me, it’s mine – I haven’t got one. I tried to convince myself that you weren’t good enough for me. The truth is, I was afraid I wouldn’t be ‘good enough’ for you.”
“One question for everyone here – do adults actually play the “what’s your number” game? I had thought that this particular piece of foolishness stopped some time in the very early twenties at the latest. Are people in their late twenties or even thirties still doing this?”
I dunno. I’m in my 30s and I’m not embarrassed to say that my “number” is zero.
I’ve never understood the notion of retroactive jealousy: that you can be jealous of people your lover has long finished with. Not that I much understand being jealous of current people interested in your lover either. After all, current interest is flattering to her/him, and should therefore be flattering to you as the chosen one. Mind you, even if your partner fucks someone else, I don’t think yoru jealousy should bust things up between you, if your partner still prefers you.
Durnit, Teresa beat me to it!
Hugo, I hope your former student will come to realize that, hurtful as it is to have been dumped, that she is better off without him.
“I’ve never understood the notion of retroactive jealousy: that you can be jealous of people your lover has long finished with. ”
I’m not getting this concept either. To me the ex is an ex for a reason, and your SO has already chosen you. Why would you even care about the ex? I know that Hugo doesn’t believe me about this, but I just don’t get the jealousy concept in general unless the third party is a direct threat to the relationship.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a little sexual competitiveness, but discussions about “the number” don’t tell you anything about how to be the best lover you’re partner’s ever had. My view is, the best approach is to try to be the best lover your partner’s had *that day*, then by the time you string 10, 11 years’ worth of days together, you can reasonably expect you’ve made the highlight reel at least a couple of times.
I understand the concept, though I’ll freely admit that it’s not particularly rational. “Jealousy” may not be the best word to describe it, because it doesn’t have much to do with envying the past partners or feeling directly threatened by them– it’s more that when it sinks in that your partner’s had all these romantic/sexual experiences that have nothing to do with you and that you can never truly understand, it can be unsettling, especially if you don’t have many similar experiences in your own past. I can’t figure out how to say it so that it won’t sound self-centered and possessive– perhaps it just inherently is self-centered and possessive, but it happens. I’m not saying it justifies calling one’s girlfriend a “slut” or breaking off the relationship, but I do think “retroactive jealousy” is understandable (particularly for those who are relative beginners at the whole serious sexual relationship thing), and can be overcome if one is willing to get past the initial emotional reaction and discuss things honestly with one’s partner.
As for “the ex is an ex for a reason,” it’s not always that simple– sure, the relationship ended for a reason, but not necessarily a reassuring one. People don’t always fully move on after relationships end, issues from past relationships can haunt current ones, etc. This is part of the reason I think honesty is so important– when you don’t know the whole story about your partner’s past, it’s easy to develop worries about that sort of thing. Often, all it takes is one good conversation to put those worries to rest; not talking about it for fear of seeming judgmental or insecure, on the other hand, is likely to do quite the opposite. I don’t think it’s constructive to tell people they shouldn’t feel jealous or care about their partner’s past– whether they should or not, if it matters to them, it matters to them. What’s important is how they deal with it.
Better to be a slut than a snivelling weenie. But that’s just me.
I second pretty much everything Keri has said.
I’ve discussed “numbers,” as well as general details, with everyone I’ve dated, and found it to be a positive experience. If someone had had a lot of brief encounters, I wouldn’t necessarily worry about the exact number and the details of each one. But I find it helpful in building a strong bond to share where you’re coming from experience-wise. It’s not something I talk about on the first date, because it requires a certain level of trust and compatibility to ensure that we’re prepared to handle the information in a mature fashion.
“You bring up some interesting points, but even after all that I still think it’s best to be honest about one’s past in a relationship. ”
But, I don’t see not sharing “numbers” as being less than honest. Pretending to be a virgin when you’re not would be dishonest. Pretending that your ex that you’re still friends with is just a friend that you were never involved with would be dishonest. But not giving a “number”? I don’t even know what a “number” would be. Is it everyone I ever had intercourse with? Everyone I was ever naked with? Everyone I ever kissed? Unless there’s a specific context (such as, how many people have you had unsafe sex, in VD terms, with), I don’t see how the question even has a meaningful answer.
So, I’ve never given my husband a number, and he’s never given me one. I know that he wasn’t a virgin when we met, and the names of certain past girl friends, and he knows the same about me. I’m not obliged to tell him exactly how far I went with each ex.
Antigone:
“Well, I always ask for the number in regards to the STD question. It’s not so much that I care about the actual number, but more to the point that I care about if he has any diseases floating around, and if the guy is a non-virgin, my next question immediately becomes “Did you use protection and have you been tested”? If the answer is “no” to both, then no sex happens.”
Regardless of what he says, I hope you still use a condom; this seems like a very unreliable way to protect yourself.
I’m not getting this concept either. To me the ex is an ex for a reason, and your SO has already chosen you. Why would you even care about the ex? I know that Hugo doesn’t believe me about this, but I just don’t get the jealousy concept in general unless the third party is a direct threat to the relationship.
Its an issue at the beginning of a relationship, I think, and I totally understand it. Not to the point of a high number making you an undatable slut, but in the same sense that to most of us, pretty much anything that could make you insecure will at the beginning of a relationship. And if that’s a high number that’s what you latch on to. For me, it was that his most recent ex- was one of the most gorgeous women everyone who I talked to had ever seen, though his number was 0 (for ‘sex’ at least. not like it kept him from much else), and I’m short and chubby. For him, it was that 0 coupled with my not-so-much zero and the anxiety of maybe sucking. But its 2 years later now, and I can honestly say that it certainly doesn’t matter anymore. We have more to hold us together than just the physical, and we’ve both turned away temptations of infidelity quite a few times by now (i.e., if I’m not the best in bed, its not like that doesn’t bug me, but there’s got to be a million other reasons he’s with me…so I just have to accept that and try harder). I can’t imagine that anyone for whom a number matters in more than an early-relationship-jitters way or for more than a few months actually has a very solid idea of what their relationship is based on. Its not that talking about his past partners doesn’t provoke a ‘the hussy! he’s mine now!’ sort of casually jealous response, but that anyone who lets that get to them after any length of time is insecure at best and a real jerk at worst.
I had an interesting situation with a former boyfriend because I wanted to know and he didn’t want to tell me. After much bitterness, he grudgingly revealed that the number was 1, which left me wondering why it had been so big a deal and whether he didn’t trust me. He also expected me to behave as if my past had no bearing whatsoever on my present, and talked about my exes as something he was trying hard to forget about.
I like to compare notes, and I think there are healthy and unhealthy ways to do it. The last time I exchanged number, we just mentioned order of magnitude “double figures” “only single figures for me” and went on to more interesting things.
Hugo, your addendum seems to be right on target in identifying the problem, but not enough in solving it. Our culture puts virginity – especially female virginity – on a pedestal. It supposedly means they’re morally superior, love you more, will feel better in bed, etc. And Christian social conservatism has a lot to answer for in maintaining this meme (although of course not creating it).
I’m glad you personally feel that people shouldn’t get to judge others for not being a virgin, but do you think that the populace at large can reconcile “being a virgin is better” with “if your partner was promiscuous, it doesn’t matter”? Your recent posts on the diversity of homophobes or on how thoughts of lust and violence can be similarly sinful to acts of lust and violence, show that you understand how hard it is to maintain nuances like this on a grand societal scale. As long as we fetishize virginity (no matter how good our reason for doing so), “the number” will be a way men have of value-ing women.
The ex is an ex for a reason, sure, but that reason may not be sexual performance. It’s always a possibility that you aren’t the hottest thing ever, you know. I’ll be honest–I can fathom my boyfriend had exes but I’m human and don’t like to dwell on the idea of them in bed or anything.
Well, the fact that I use a condom goes without saying (and the pill for some of those more pesky STDs. Yes, I just refered to pregnancy as a disease, deal with it). But, if I’m sleeping with someone, I have to be able to trust that he’s not lying to me. This coupled with the question does limit who I get to sleep with, but *shrugs* better than getting something.
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But, I don’t see not sharing “numbers” as being less than honest.
Oh, I agree. I don’t think focusing on “the number” as if it tells you anything at all about the person is constructive, and though I don’t mind discussing it, I don’t blame people who’d rather not. I do, however, think it’s unreasonable to treat one’s past love life like a dirty little secret that can never be discussed, or to expect one’s partner to treat his or her past that way.
If someone doesn’t specifically want to talk about past sexual experiences, that’s fine (as long as they haven’t had ramifications that can affect me/the current relationship), but I do expect that once I get to know someone I’m dating well enough, I’ll have a fairly clear picture of who his most recent ex-girlfriends were, how long they were together and the general circumstances surrounding the breakup. Not because I want to judge him for it or “use it against him” or even really draw any conclusions about him as a result of those past experiences– because I want to be involved in his life and understand him, and even though those relationships are over, they’re still part of who he is. I’m not comfortable with the “you can tell your close friends, but not your partner” distinction– my partner is my closest friend, and there’s nothing I’m willing to discuss with my other friends that I’m not willing to discuss with him. We discuss everything else under the sun, after all– why should past relationships be off-limits? Isn’t that just giving them more weight and significance than they really deserve?
Anyway, I’m not sure if Hugo and others are taking “don’t ask, don’t tell” far enough so as to recommend that past relationships never be discussed at all, but if so, I strongly disagree. And really, you would have to take it that far if you really wanted your partner to have no idea as to how many people you’ve had sex with; if the past relationships went on long enough and were sufficiently serious, and your partner doesn’t have any specific objections to having sex in relationships of that length and seriousness, it’s a safe bet that those relationships probably got physical at some point. You may not be able to come up with an exact number, but it’s pretty easy to estimate.
Bottom line: As someone who has been there with the whole jealousy bit, I think it’s far better to be fully honest (“I’ve been with 5 people and here’s the general story about each of them”) than partially honest (“I’ve been with 5 people” and nothing else, allowing one to imagine that all 5 were brilliant supermodels who were amazing in bed) or entirely silent on the matter (allowing one to imagine whatever would bother her the most). So no, I don’t think we should obsess over “the number,” but I don’t much like “don’t ask, don’t tell” either.
My husband likes the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy, but personally, I find it depressing. To me, being in love means (in part) having an intense curiosity about the other person and an intense desire to share all aspects of oneself. I want to know everything about my husband. I want to know about his childhood pets, his favorite books, his religious experiences, courses he took in college, his relationhips with his parents and other relatives, everything that made him who he is today.
Inevitably, that means I also wish I knew about his past relationships and sexual experiences but I know very, very little even after 8 years of marriage! I also wish he were more curious about my prior boyfriends and how those experiences shaped me. I can’t fathom the concept of being jealous of long dead relationships, and it’s hard for me to accept having topics one can’t discuss with one’s most intimate partner.
In The Unbearable Lightness of Being, the male protagonist, Tomas, who has had many female lovers, discusses how each woman is different, and each has sexual mysteries to be discovered. Why think that a woman (or a man) ranks her lovers to determine which is “the best,” whatever that means? Why not instead acknowledge that people differ from one another, and that sex with each person is a wonderful discovery? I don’t care how my lover stacks up compared to previous lovers; I want to know what s/he is like, what his/her tastes and pleasures and mysteries are.
A couple notes on your post that have nothing to do with numbers (mine being “way more than yours”):
Fetishizing virginity stigmatizes victims of sexual abuse and violence. Frankly, it puts an emphasis not on self-control and Godliness, but on a kind of sick competitiveness–being the first one in, as it were.
And while “it doesn’t follow that a good Christian has a right to demand that his or her spouse have an equally low level of sexual experience” can mean not judging others, it’s also the rationalization that’s used to prop up the sexual double standard: we don’t expect men to have the same self-control, so we don’t really expect women to tell their male partners “I waited, and I expect you to have the same commitment.”
I’m not so fond of totting up numbers (what’s supposed to count as “sex” for those purposes anyway?), but I share CMC’s feelings on “don’t ask, don’t tell”. It is depressing to have facts about yourself you can’t discuss with even your closest friend. Anyhow, specific, non-statistical information is useful for relationship-building — it helps you figure out how the other person works inside, and how they’ll respond to new situations, and what new things they might enjoy. I’d sort of hestitate to date anyone who wasn’t open to discussing past sexual relationships (not that that’s an issue for the foreseeable future).
antigon, your a genious. (all though you will probably disagree with me)
and yes I agree. What’s the deal with that “you can tell your friends but not your partner”?
(I thought that A love interest or spouse was exactly that because he or she is the one person on the earth with which you where the most intimate?)
anyways, the real issue lies behind the questioning. why does a woman’s past bother us enough to ask? why do we want to know about the past? Why are we asking?
You can phyco-analyse it and phd talk it all you want but men want to feel like they are a woman’s supreme love interest. period. It’s about being able to say to yourself “I am loved more than all others.” I’m unique. I’m special. It is about being “number 1.”
now, the “number one-ness” that I’m speaking of isn’t specific things. it’s about being a woman’s number one all time object of love as far as the arena of love goes.
not best kisser. not best in bed. not most succesful. not the most powerful or muscular. You can be the “greatest” without being the best at anything.
For a man to be happy in a relationship he must truly feel and believe that he has your heart more so than any man before him ever has or ever could.
ok so what’s the problem?
THE PROBLEM.
by the time most people meet and then get serious, everything that the two of them could possibly do together, both physically and emotionally, has already been done. Most if not all the physical rights of a husband have been partaken in by numerous people. or even if they’ve just been partaken in by one other. It doesn’t matter.
“Show me the proof that I’m different.” he says.
According to your blog, you should tell him to suck it up or hit the road right?
nah. give him what he wants. Don’t give the girl-euphamistic-generalizations. Don’t give the polite vague fictions. tell him whatever you can remember. tell him the truth. don’t hide anything. Freely associate like you would with a girl friend. that’s what he wants.
a bit of advice though. There should be two parts to any explanation:
1) Tell him what it was then.
2) Tell him what it is now.
We aren’t stupid. You weren’t with people because they were boring and ugly. be honest. It could not be true, nor will he believe you if you make it sound as if every guy you dated and hooked up with was an ugly jerky bastard that you really never cared for oh and none of them ever totally turned you on.
no, so come on, tell him the good things that drew you to him, the thoughts you were thinking, the place where you were at spiritualy, memerable occurances and then talk about where it went wrong. exactly how it went. tell him what you did physically. we did this and this
then tell him what it is now. “it means nothing.” or “i’ll always be there for him.”
shocking I know. I honestly believe that those who say that honety doesn’t work haven’t been honest.
they volunteer partial info. and the rest is pulling teeth. “we hooked up but it was no big deal.” “it was innocent and chaste compared to what most people do.” “we fooled around.”
these methods of explanation are like a man who is away on buisness asking his wife about the color of the new family car and having her reply “oh it’s a color you’ll like, so don’t worry about it.” that tells us nothing.
if you are not going to volunteer everything, don’t volunteer anything: what would be the point, you’re still holding him at a distance
– HE STILL FEELS THAT THERE ARE OTHER MEN IN THAT SPECIAL PRIVATE PLACE THAT HE IS TRYING TO ESTABLISH THROUGH HIS QUESTIONING. HE ISN’T RISING TO THE TOP.
HE IS TRYING TO MAKE A PLACE IN THE RELATIONSHIP THAT IS HIS, WHERE HE, INSPITE OF THE PAST, IS KING.
that’s why he’s asking. because he want’s to believe he is diffrent and that what you and he have is special. and you make him so by finally being completely open.
so it’s not what we want to know. it’s that we want you to tell us.
And when a woman tells a man everything she is elevationg him to that place that physical sex is only a metaphor of.
When this happens, as a man, he’s finally in a place that none but herself has been. he’s finally at level of intimacy that is superior to sexual intimacy, because, unlike the latter, no other man has been there. the true holly of holey’s is the heart.
Lastly, From what I’ve read, I suspect that some of your heads are spinning really fast, clock wise on your neck. that’s understadable.
after all, how dare I, a man, talk about what I want. what I need.
it’s so funny that in this fast time of supposed unshackled intellectualy frankness that these things are shamed under the rug.
now men are the oppressed.
what a silly notion for a man to desire kingship (so then he can be a slave by the way) in the heart of a woman (or to even talk about it).
that’s not intellectual. that’s not trendy. that’s not new or obscur. by all means email me with your comments.
I just want to commend you on your insight.
When I was 18 I started dating a 16 year old girl, whom I stayed with on and off for roughly 7 years. Even though she was only 16 when I first met her, she had quite a bit of experience. I was a virgin. This disparity gnawed at me over the course of our relationship, sometimes to a terrible degree, and it led us down a path from which we never recovered.
What was even worse for me was the rapidity at which she had new sexual experiences during the few times we broke up. During those periods, I generally had not even gone out on a date yet. Sometimes she had had sex with 2 people already.
Untimately this differing view on the role of sexuality and the importance given to it destroyed our relationship. Of course, it probably wasn’t rational or logical, but often times feelings are not.
Draper,
I just read your comment, and I think you have hit the nail on the head with regards to the origin of these feelings.
We simply all want to feel special. Simple as that. We are inundated with messages about how “magical” romantic love is … the Western ideal of Love is so overwhelming and all-encompassing, synonymous with spirituality and light and goodness.
If your lover has had sex with numerous partners, it diminishes the “specialness” of sex. You start feeling like just a number. One in a long line of other lovers. Just another notch on the bed post. Also, it highlights just how emphemeral love and sex can be. It is a reminder that she in fact had all these same feelings before, for someone else, and it all went to shit.
If she has been in love numerous times in the past, it diminishes the “specialness” of being in love.
If she has swallowed (there is nothing special about you at all. She swallowed for all the other guys too.), or done this or that, it diminishes the “specialness” of all these things.
I used to agonize over all this a great deal when I was much younger, but alas age has finally taken the edge off of some of these feelings. Yet still, just the other night I popped on a “mood” CD with my girlfriend and we were getting frisky when she said her previous boyfriend loved this CD. Being fully aware of how irrational retro-jealousy is, I simply told her he had good taste and continued on … incredibly, when things had gotten really hot and heavy and I came up for air, I suddenly remembered what she had said and noticed the music again. I grabbed the remote and flipped it to the next CD !
You think you are selfish and insecure … ha !
It is not enough for me to be the best all around.
I want to have the biggest penis.
I want to have made love to her the slowest … the fastest … the softest … the hardest … in the most unusual position … at the highest altitude … the lowest … the strangest location … in front of the most people … the most times in one day … and on and on. And that’s just sex.
I want to be the handsomest, the sexiest, have the biggest muscles, the nicest butt.
I want her to love me more than anyone she ever loved before.
I want us to explode with passion and lust and love and merge with the God-head and spend all eternity in a loving sexual embrace.
Maybe I am incredibly insecure, but I would be lying if I said I did not want all these things. I think a lot of others want this too. Hell, maybe it’s not even so crazy to want this afterall. What is crazy is if you let it screw up a good thing.
As for whether to tell your lover about your past experiences … I think I agree with the original author. If you do tell, don’t be afraid to tell little white lies. Don’t dwell on details (these details can get lodged in peoples brains). I had a lover once tell me intricate details about how she got screwed on this one couch, and I could not have sex with her on that couch without thinking about it. That’s just the way some peoples brains work. I don’t think it hurts at all to downplay previous relationships.
On the subject of one’s sexual past, I’ve become a great believer that no one should ever ask — or answer — the question “So, how many people have you slept with?”
True enough. But I will take it further. I know many women who can’t help but asking, “Tell me about your relationships.” And then judge men by the quality of their “relationships.”
What this means is that men who have been, say, shy and unable to get relationships in the past will be consigned to the outer darkness.
One other point about the guy who was calling his girlfriend a “slut”: sometimes the guy is jealous of the woman (since she has more experience than he) and seeks to put her down.
“I understand the concept, though I’ll freely admit that it’s not particularly rational. ‘Jealousy’ may not be the best word to describe it, because it doesn’t have much to do with envying the past partners or feeling directly threatened by them– it’s more that when it sinks in that your partner’s had all these romantic/sexual experiences that have nothing to do with you and that you can never truly understand, it can be unsettling, especially if you don’t have many similar experiences in your own past. I can’t figure out how to say it so that it won’t sound self-centered and possessive– perhaps it just inherently is self-centered and possessive, but it happens. I’m not saying it justifies calling one’s girlfriend a ‘slut’ or breaking off the relationship, but I do think ‘retroactive jealousy’ is understandable (particularly for those who are relative beginners at the whole serious sexual relationship thing), and can be overcome if one is willing to get past the initial emotional reaction and discuss things honestly with one’s partner…As for ‘the ex is an ex for a reason,’ it’s not always that simple– sure, the relationship ended for a reason, but not necessarily a reassuring one. People don’t always fully move on after relationships end, issues from past relationships can haunt current ones, etc. This is part of the reason I think honesty is so important– when you don’t know the whole story about your partner’s past, it’s easy to develop worries about that sort of thing. Often, all it takes is one good conversation to put those worries to rest; not talking about it for fear of seeming judgmental or insecure, on the other hand, is likely to do quite the opposite. I don’t think it’s constructive to tell people they shouldn’t feel jealous or care about their partner’s past– whether they should or not, if it matters to them, it matters to them. What’s important is how they deal with it.”
As this thread has been resurrected, I’d like to do what I should have done five months ago, and that’s give Keri the “I-Couldn’t-Have-Said-It-Better-Myself” Award. And she’s right to point out that it not only applies to sex but also to love and other things. If you feel something for another person, you want it to be the other person’s first time, as well, no matter what it may be.
Boy Genteel
http://www.safe4all.org
One of the biggest problems with virgins is that, since they have never had sex, they think they are experts in it!
“One of the biggest problems with virgins is that, since they have never had sex, they think they are experts in it!”
Don’t confuse “innocence” with naivete.
bg
Don’t confuse “innocence” with naivete.
What do you mean?
I mean that those who haven’t experienced sex are often believed to be clueless saps. Picture the poster from THE 40-YEAR-OLD VIRGIN, in which the protagonist has an ethereal glow about his head, and has a smile on his face that says, “Golly jeepers, Mrs. H! That sure was a nifty glass of milk! May I pretty please have another?”
I’ve never eaten tripe, but I know what it is. Same principle.
bg
Hi,
I want to tell that I am a victim of retroactive jealousy in the sense that I am the one who is jealous. My wife had a lot of lovers before we met. I know from what she told me, from the stories she recounted and also from the pictures she still has of these men that each one was twice the man that I am. All of them were good looking, with skinny, muscular bodies. They all had long arms and good-looking faces.
I am overweight and suffer from Peyronie (a certain bending of the penis).
Let me tell you, life is a living hell for me. I constantly ponder about what she did, how much fun she had, and how she compares me to these “Supermen”.
We are still together because we have three children, and have to pay off the house.
I know for a fact that retroactive jealousy exists.
that each one was twice the man that I am
Good grief. What you know for a fact is that these men were, in those photos, good-looking and skinny. That says nothing about what kind of people they are, what they would look like now, or what kind of husband and father they would have turned out to be. If these guys were such hot stuff, why didn’t she marry any of them?
If you really can’t get your mind off your wife’s past, I suggest you get therapy or some kind of other help. I don’t mean that in a nasty way. But if you can’t stop thinking about something she can’t change, and believing you can read her mind, you are killing your marriage.
I’m also a victim. I’m 21, my girlfriend is 20. She’s been with 7 people before me, I’ve been with 2 before her. One of mine was a casual experience as an experiment. One of hers was a one-night stand and another was a friends-with benefits thing.
As soon as I found out the number, after playing a drinking game. My sexual performance went to crap, and I experienced performance anxiety for the first time. In the end, it turns out that the one-night stand bothers me less than the friends with benefits thing.
This guy was the typical wild-popular-frat guy-jock type, he was “so built she felt self conscious around him, especially during sex,” and he was one of the 2 guys before me to bring her to orgasm. He got her off by just going all out and pushing her over the edge, with me I honestly attributed it more to me opening up to her so much and her to me and being so comfortable. I’m left feeling like the kid that works his butt off to achieve something, investing himself in it, when another kid comes by and nails it in the first try. What makes it worse is the fact that I can’t even hope to get her off the same way due to the performance anxiety.
So I see where its stemming from, all that insecurity. On a personal level I disagree with some of her choices and I do usually hope for my partner to value sex as much as I have, but at the same time this would not bother me nearly as much if the friends w/benefits thing wasn’t in there. I just want to be the best she’s had and this guy is a direct assault on my security in that, even if he is in the past.
With all respect and compassion, a past relationship is not a “direct assault”; the THOUGHT of the past relationship is, and the difference is colossal.
That said, you make a superb argument for NOT disclosing TMI (too much information) to one’s current lovers.
I agree, it’s the thought of the past relationship.
One thing I left out is the fact that this type of guy was my achilles heel to begin with, in my last relationship I was cheated on twice with this exact “type”. It’s not my current girlfriend’s problem nor responsibility, and I’ve told her that.
kaiowas wrote:
“I’m left feeling like the kid that works his butt off to achieve something, investing himself in it, when another kid comes by and nails it in the first try. ”
Exactly the same thing happened to me. I dated my wife for 8 weeks before she very reluctantly was consenting to going to bed with me, whereas for example one other guy met her, kissed her and took her to a hotel where they had sex – all in less than a day. Often she would have a crush on a guy and have serious petting with him in a car -something that she never did with me. Stuff like this is bound to get you jealous.
How similar events are, and how similar the feelings associated with them.
For me personally, it’s not my girlfriend’s past relationships that bother me, but her one night stands, (which are siginficantly more than my 2) and the fact that one of them was with a friend of mine. That really bothers me for some reason and I can’t figure out why. At times i’m fine with it, but at other times it really eats away at me. I know my reaction to this upsets her at times, but it upsets me also.
Though a dated comment list, here goes anyway.
I think many of you, including the author, are incredibly naieve. Negating your prospective sweetie’s past is not thinking clearly. It’s one thing if you have known this person in another context for many years and share mutual friends- it’s quite another if you only met them recently and are considering moving the relationship toward a more intimate level.
Under normal circumstances, when you reach the age of say, 25, it is normal to have a “past”- I would say that anyone who doesn’t should be looked at just as hard as someone with a very large past. That being said, a person’s past can tell you an awful lot about them and what the prospects are of having a rewarding relationship with the person. Two very different people could arrive at similar “numbers” under very different circumstances by the same age. Obviously the age at which sexual intercourse (and yes, fellatio is a form of penetration and I would say, just to be fair, that so is cunilingus) begins is a factor, but so to is the person’s propensity toward serial monogamy, one night stands, child hood experiences as well their sense of self. Give me a truly lusty woman any day rather then a woman who has no self confidence and seeks love through promiscuous sex. One has a clear idea of who and what she is and what she is after while the other is most likely suffering from low self esteem and parental neglect.
Clinical studies have shown that both men and women who’s sexual experience is a preponderance of one night stands also invariably have low self esteem as well as problems with identifying their autonomous selves- in other words, they may have never developed one. Whether or not they have ever had a relationship that lasted more then a few months is also of extreme value. Affairs are not relationships- they are simply affairs. Relationships should last at least two years- better yet, five years. Love is not something you simply try on for awhile. Along with all of that is the person’s frame of mind while they are out having one night stands- a man who sleeps with a woman he has absolutely no respect for as his preferred method of “getting it” is not a man who will likely ever bond with a woman on a truly intimate level. Nor will a woman likely ever love in a mature manner when she is out seeking love in a one night stand or confuses casual sex with love and true intimacy. They are mutually exclusive to one another. The longer a person goes on like that, the less likely they are to ever really change. The vast majority of marriages that fail in the first five years do so because of a lack of willingness on the part of at least one partner to fully give of themselves within the marriage. It can happen in many ways but most commonly it is selfishness due to having never given another persons feelings much thought. I would much rather be with a woman who slept with one man a thousand times then with one who slept with 25 different men once. Why? She has most likely learned something from that relationship while the one who has had the one night stands has learned nothing- or she would have stopped looking for love and fulfillment where none can ever be found- she hasn’t the slightest clue as to what a loving relationship should be. Neither will a man situated as such.
Which isn’t to say that people cannot recognize the error of their ways- but wouldn’t you rather they came to those conclusions on their own and had corrected whatever it was that produced the behavior before they become a part of your life? I know I would as I would not want to be the brunt of their learning process. Call me selfish but I would much prefer a relationship with a mature person capable of mature and lasting love and intimacy then someone who is still trying to find out who they are or looking for mommy or daddy in their interpersonal relationships.
I have also read here that some lying is “okay”- is it? If the basis of love is trust, and the basis of trust is honesty, then were and when is a lie okay? If your lover is willing to lie to you about one thing, or maybe a few things- so as “not to hurt your feelings” (the most common excuse, by the way), then what else will they lie to you about? Where do they draw the line? Do you want someone based upon false pretenses? Would you want to fall in love with someone who doesn’t exist? I wouldn’t. Do you want to go through life guessing as to when and where that someone is being honest? No thanks.
It all comes down to this. No one should believe it’s okay to lie to someone they care about- or be lied to. No relationship can work long term if it is not based upon absolute honesty. If the person asks, then answer. My belief is that both parties should be completely willing to lay their cards on the table- and let the other person decide whether or not you are right for them. In other words, you have to be willing to accept someone for who they are- in totality, without the wish to make them into the person (whether real or imagined) you want them to be- people seldom, if ever change unless they truly want to. Expecting someone to change for you (rather than themselves) is both foolish and immature. It will not happen. If you have a “storied” past then look for someone who is secure enough to handle it and get it over with. Sooner or later the truth always comes out anyway. Wouldn’t you rather deal with it up front?
I know all about the jealousy factor. When I first met my wife to be, she was 17. She had dated several guys in the neighborhood but said she was never intimate with any of them. If you listen to the guys side of the story, it’s just the opposite. She says I was her first, and after a few years of marriage, her best friend from the old neighborhood contacted her to let her know one of the guys from the neighborhood had sent word thru her that if she ever felt the need, to give him a call. I wasn’t the best looking guy, nor was I the best built. I think what hurt the most was that during the initial stage of the relationship she kept close, very close contact with one of the guys that “almost was”. He and I were intense rivals and she often took his side on any issue that came up within our neighborhood. I can count eleven men who were with her before, during, and after our relationship. After were married and had our first child, she continued to go out with her girlfriends all weekend long. It only stopped after her friends became involved with long term relationships and no longer had time to party all weekend long. I still get the feeling that there is some unfinished business she has with the men she left behind. We’ve moved far away from the town where we grew up in, but it seems the shadow of those relationships will never cease haunting me. She is a very attractive woman, the kind of look men are attracted to, so much of the feelings I have here are rooted in the “why did she choose me” mentality. Overall, it has been a lifetime of waiting for the inevitable. Her telling me that she is going back or me finding her in a compromising position of which there is no explanation.
I’ve been married to a wonderful, sexy woman for 10 years. We met when I was 18, she 17. She lost her viginity at age 14 and had 5 sexual partners before me. Me? A virgin for the most part (a few close calls- wouldn’t call it sex). I had a really hard time about her past (especially since we were in a small town and I knew all the men err boys she had been with) but had pretty much gotten over it until recently. Among the 5 partners, she had a couple of one night stands and once gave head to two guys at the same time. She always assured me she regretted the way she acted and would do it differently if she could. I believed her. We now have two kids. We’ve moved into a large city but a few days ago, she ran into one her exes and low and behold, he lives two blocks from us. She also proceeded to tell one her friends in the neighborhood that this is one of her old boyfriends and she had sex with him. I am also good friends with this couple and this infuriated me. I know it is her past, but I think she disrespected me and I am really hurt. If I am going to look the other way, what gives her the right to embarass me and flaunt it when she said she regretted it? It is consuming me, I don’t know what to do. I feel like everything that was dead and buried is back with a vengence. She tells me I am over reacting and that it is ancient history and I have no right to judge her for things she did 20 years ago. I’m lost, I can’t help how I feel. A few days ago, I was the happiest guy on the planet.
Well, gosh. It’s clear that the details of what happened all those years ago still haunt you, and that’s painful. At the same time, your wife is right — you have no right to judge her for what she did before the two of you were together. And while you have a right to her fidelity, you don’t have a right to demand that she stay silent about her entire past to everyone else. (Though if she’s bragging about it everywhere, that’s another issue altogether.) There’s a difference betweeen regretting one’s past and taking a vow of silence about it.
I don’t know her intent, but I doubt it was to embarrass you. If it was, then that is a sign of real cruelty; if not, it may well be that you have farther to go than you realize on your journey. Your choice is to practice radical, unconditional love of your wife or to allow these feelings to consume you. And though it may seem you cannot help how you feel, my experience has been that counseling can indeed offer tremendous relief to those who suffer obsessive or intrusive thoughts.
Be well — many years ago, I was where you are, and I found healing and relief in counseling and prayer.
She always assured me she regretted the way she acted and would do it differently if she could.
Regret’s not the same as shame.
If you think your wife should not only regret but be ashamed and silent about it – why? If she talked about her marital sex life, or if she cheated on you and told people, that would certainly be embarrassing and a breach of boundaries, but her pre-marital sex life? It didn’t include you – that’s why it bothers you, after all. So how can mentioning it be an act of disrespect to you?
You’re hurt and upset, and you absolutely have a right to your feelings, but nothing your wife did before knowing you can possibly be construed as any kind of offense against you, since she hadn’t made any promises to you then. If she harmed anybody, she harmed herself, and if she’s gotten over it enough to stop feeling much regret, isn’t that good? You’d be much more upset if your wife, whom you love, was still ashamed and punishing herself all this time later, surely. Wouldn’t her pain upset you more than her nonchalance?
It’s not all about you, dude.
You guys are completely right on the money. Thank you. I should be thankful that she has moved on. And, there is nothing I can do about what happened before I met her so why bother myself with it? She used to feel shameful and those were miserable times. I should embrace the fact that she no longer feels this way. This is a selfish thought, but part of my issue I think isn’t about her sexual history as much as it is about a lack of my own. In a sick but honest revelation, I think I would be better off if I had a few notches in the bedpost of my own before I met her. That is stupid I know, but a deep part of me is embarassed that I was a virgin and married the first girl I had sex with. I feel inferior to her and to most of the people I know in this arena as there aren’t too many guys like me (at least that I know). I always had plenty of girlfriends, but I was scared to have sex (might have been 8 years of Catholic school, I dunno). Anyway, thanks for the advice.
You’ve copped to your real reasons for your jealousy, Thought, and that’s commendable. Best of luck to you and your wife.
I too admit I have a problem with being jealous of my partner’s past sexual partners and even though a lot of it is totally irrational and idiotic I still can’t help but feel it although it has been subsiding a little. She had 3 partners before me including a husband of 5 years. I was a virgin before I met her. Needless to say I knew I would not measure up to them in the begining especially since these men were at least 5 years older than me in thier 30′s therefore with plenty of experience. At first I excepted that but I made it my goal to eventually beat them as lovers. I have come a long way (no pun intended) . It’s only been 3 months and she recently called me a “good fu**er” and told me that she never desired a guy as much as me. And I know she’s telling the truth and not just trying to stroke my ego because I never provoked these comments. But yet I still can’t help overcoming my jealously. She was talking about one of her ex’s recently and told me how she was really never that close to him even though they went out for 6 months but the sex was good. The wave of jealosoly I felt when I heard that was tremendous, even as I type this I can feel it. I feel this way because I figure that this guy must have been a really good lover for her to have stayed with him that long. It bothers the hell out of me. Am I insecure? I think so and I think it has to do with me being new to a sexual relationship and having such high standards for myself. But I do know deep down inside I’m being such an idiot for feeling this way especially given that the sex we have is great and she tells me it great unprovoked, we love each other, and I’m getting better at sex all the time. Also unlike her other lovers who could only go 1 time a day, I can go 3-5 times in one day and we have sex about 7-10 times a week even though we don’t live together. I gotta be doing something right for this to happen I tell myself. But still I can’t help but feel jealous about her ex. I don’t want to ask her how I compare to her other lovers because she may not tell me the truth. I am waiting for her to say that I am the best she’s had unprovoked so I know its true. But actually I feel a lot less jealous now that I have put in writing what I have done with this girl and made her feel in just 3 months. Not bad for rookie eh?
Hey all, its me again. My jealousy has subsided further these days. I just had a wild weekend with my girlfriend and mabey it had to do with me reflecting upon my jealousy which I believe made me desire her ever more . The sex I had with her was the best yet. It was wild animal sex. If the loudness and frequency of a girl’s moans are indicators of how good you were in bed then I’d have to say I was pretty damn good. One of the nights involved drunken sex and man I gotta tell you, it was the best I ever had. The “whiskey dick” effect made me last for about 35 minutes. In fact, I couldn’t even finish because I got tired. The problem I have now is not so much my jealousy but that I might be in too deep. Just after we were done doing the deed she told me to never leave her and stay with her forever. I don’t know if that was the alcohol talking but damn what a thing to say for only about 3.5 months of being together. I could picture myself marrying this girl one day but its too soon for me to think about stuff like that. I was flattered though and I know she loves me very much. What an idiot I am for feeling so jealous over nothing.
Wow. I just stumbled across this site, read through everyone’s comments and I’m already started to feel a little better. It looks like no one has posted for a couple of months, but I sure could use a support group for men who suffer from this retroactive jealousy. In the hopes that someone is still out there listening, here’s my story:
When I first met my wife, she had just recently been divorced from her first husband and I had just recently ended a relationship with my fiancé. We were both 23 years old at the time. I was a virgin, as I had decided long ago to abstain until I was married. Unlike most people who choose to abstain, I didn’t do it for religious reasons. I’m just a hopeless romantic who only wanted to experience that kind of intimacy with the one woman whom I had committed to love, hold and cherish for the rest of my life.
When we first started seeing each other, she was honest and up front with me regarding her first marriage relationship. Within a week of meeting her first husband, she had moved in with him. A couple of months later, she got pregnant. A few months after that, they got married. Shortly after they got married, she miscarried. Fortunately, she didn’t have anymore children with him. She and her first husband stayed married for the next couple of years, until he met someone else and basically kicked her out.
Because of her past and the fact that both of us were on the rebound, I wanted to be cautious and take things slow, so at first we were only seeing each other as friends (i.e. no kissing or physical contact). A few months later, we came to a cross-road. She wanted to take the relationship further, but I could already feel some pretty intense feelings of retroactive jealousy. I thoroughly enjoyed her company and I was physically attracted to her as well, and I thought that the retroactive jealousy thing was completely irrational and that I would eventually get over it. So, we decided to take the relationship to the next level. As things started to heat up between us physically, my feelings of retroactive jealousy only got worse. It was at that point that I first told her about those feelings and she basically laughed it off as ridiculous. We stayed together for about a year until I just couldn’t take it anymore and I broke things off. At that same time, I moved to the east coast to take a new job. Well, she continued to call me and e-mail me, so we continued our long-distance relationship as friends. Within a few months, the feelings of retroactive jealousy had largely subsided, and I erroneously thought that I, indeed, had gotten over it. So over the holidays when I went back to our hometown, I proposed to her. After the holidays, I went back to the east coast for my job and we didn’t even see each other again until 4 months later when we got married. During that entire time when we were doing the long-distance thing, I didn’t really have too many feelings of retroactive jealousy. I suppose I can attribute it to the whole out-of-sight, out-of-mind thing. So we got married and at that point, I couldn’t have been happier, but the happiness was short lived. The happiness and excitement basically ended the first night of our honeymoon.
I suppose I shouldn’t have expected much for my first time, but to make a long story short, she went to sleep that night unsatisfied. We tried again a few other nights with the same result and decided to just cut our honeymoon short and come back to our hometown to visit family and friends. Well one evening, when we were staying with her sister, after my wife had thought I had gone to bed, I overheard her and her sister talking. She confided in her sister that our experiences in the bedroom left much to be desired and how much better things were in the bedroom with her ex-husband. As you might imagine, I was heartbroken. The next day, I confronted her with what I had overheard, and asked her if we should consider an annulment. She basically downplayed the whole thing and told me that it didn’t really matter.
Well, it certainly mattered to me, so I spent hours and hours over the next few months studying everything from female anatomy, “how to†books, and even a few harlequin romance novels in order to improve my performance. Unfortunately, nothing seemed to work. I also asked her what worked for her in the past; tried that too, but it didn’t work.
We’ve been married 8 years now and have only been intimate with each other 3 times in the last 7 years solely for the purpose of having children. We’ve talked to a therapist about our situation and he said that it’s really not that uncommon. Apparently a lot of women who have wild, unbridled affairs with “bad boys†who eventually marry “good boys†simply don’t find the same enjoyment in intimacy. The therapist also said that my feelings of anxiety, inadequacy and retroactive jealousy have probably affected my performance in the bedroom, essentially making my worst fears come true. The therapist also downplayed my retroactive jealousy as immature and juvenile and that I just needed to let it go. I really want to just let it go, I just don’t know how.
So if any one has any words of advice, encouragement, or commiserating personal experiences, I need all the help that I can get.
I feel like this thread is a breath of fresh air. My story is similar to many others on here and a lot of what was said has effected me deeply.
I was married in 1992 to the love of my life, and today, 14 years and 4 kids later we are still together and very happy. The feeling of retroactive jealousy for me set in before we were married and by a distinctly different set of circumstances, and to a greater or lesser degree has continued to this day.
My wife and I share deeply help religious beliefs that proclude intimacy before marriage. In fact, we met through religious affiliation and felt that was a very strong basis for a relationship. We had so much in common, common values, common beliefs, interests, and we were just the best of friends before we began to be more than friends that a long-term relationship seemed simply to go without saying. On top of all that, we felt a very strong physical attraction to each other that has remained, for the most part, intact throughout our marriage.
As far as the difference in our past goes, I was raised in a very religious family, with all the support and strong value system that can go with that. My parents, while being very religious, also let me find my own path and never pushed our religion on me. I went to church regularly as a child, since my parents took me, and as an adolescent I was allowed to find my own path. Much less as a result of my religion than the fact that I was decidedly a “late bloomer” I did not date in high school and in fact had some pretty bad experiences talking to girls. My wife was the first girl I kissed for real, and definitely the first I ever did anything more than that with. At the age of 19 I took myself out of the dating scene for a while and did volunteer work for my religion for a couple of years, which is where I met my wife.
Her background was very different from mine. She grew up in a broken home without a solid mother-figure and a father who went from woman to woman throughout my wife’s early years (through high school in fact). My wife’s identity was in the religious beliefs we both shared and her high school experience, where she found the companionship and acceptance she did not get at home. Being a very attractive, and at the same time virtuous young woman, she received much attention from boys and later men in her life, as they tended to view her as a challenge. She found it very hard to stick to her values due to the type of men she attracted, and she moved from boyfriend to boyfriend, all the time wanting to hold out till marriage to be intimate while also wanting to give in to those urges as she felt that would fill the void in her heart. It did not help that most men she dated were looking for just that, and when she would not “put out” they dumped her and she was left feeling even worse about herself. Eventually, while she was considering also going into volunteer service for our religion, she met someone who did not spurn her attempts to remain a virgin and she let herself go further with him than anyone else, eventually to the point where she gave him her viginity. She immediately realized that that physical love did not fill the space in her heart, and in fact, it made it worse since she felt like she had given up something very precious to her for nothing. That and the fact that he did not share her beliefs or values, made her realize they would never amount to more than a romp in the hay, so she broke it off. They had sex twice in that 4 month period and then she moved to Europe, largely to run away from the dating scene that had been so hard on her for a few years, and that is where we met. A couple of years later, back in America, we got together, found out we had so much in common, and then began to forge a life together.
The jealousy set in for me because she felt she needed whoever she married to know about every detail of her past life. She had been hurt so many times before, when she would go against her value system just to make sure the guy at the moment would not walk away from her, but when she would not go “all the way” they did anyway, that she did not want to make the same mistakes again. She felt that only a man who could know exactly who she was and who she had been and what she had done and still love her would be the only kind of man that would not hurt her. This meant we spent a very uncomfortable (for me for sure, I presume for both of us as well) evening where she bared everything to me…and I do mean everything. I did not ask, but she started with “I feel I am falling in love with you and I do not want to get hurt again, so I need you to know some things…” Then she told me about the men she had been naked with, the men she had experimented with in petting and oral sex, and the man she slept with. She even got into when she first frenched kissed a guy and the first time she was in a shower with a man naked and the first man to touch her boobs and under her underwear. I got details about where it happened, what time of day, how they took each other’s clothes off, what it felt like, what she did to them and what they did to her. I was in shock and so I played the part of attentive listener, and, as others on this thread have pointed out, something in human nature pulls us to the controversial, so on some level I wanted to hear it all, but on other levels I wished I could have been anywhere else. I knew if I did not let her finish it would crush her, so I never said a word. She obviously felt horrible about it all and I think it was some kind of catharsis for her to get it all out in the open like that. The problem was, I had never been with anyone. I had never seriously even kissed a girl, let alone been naked with one or in a shower or had my hand down her pants or vice versa or anything. Consequently, I had some ill-concieved overly-romantic naive notions of my wife and I discovering that world together. Now here was the girl of my dreams letting me know that nothing we would ever do together was going to be “just us”, that, short of weird stuff like anal or threesomes (which interests neither of us), she had pretty much done everything.
Now don’t get me wrong, she was not a “slut”, if that denotation is defined by number of partners. I could count the number of men she had been with in some regard (other than french-kissing, which would be a pretty big number) on both hands. I think she had oral sex with 2 or 3 guys, including the one she slept with, and another 2 or 3 she was naked with and maybe 4 or 5 she seriously petted with, some of those obviously repeats. All that in a 5 or 6 year period. Those are definitely not “slut” numbers, just a fairly weak track record for most girls I have come to find out. But for someone who believes that those kind of relations outside of marriage are wrong, and who wants to save herself for marriage, those numbers are huge and it obviously weighed on her a lot.
I understood why she told me, and I took that as a privilege that she would take me inte her confidence like that, but it could not help but weigh on me as well after that. I had hoped that by finding someone with common beliefs we would get to experience all of that stuff together. I knew that most people would have more of a past than I did, and I never once gave it a second thought that my future wife was out there dating and kissing and to some degree being with other men, but I did not anticipate what a gut-check it would be to hear the details and find out what this wonderful person I fell head-over-heels for had done in her past. I knew in my head that it did not matter and that really it all made her who she was, made her the person I fell in love with. And I knew that she did not hold any feelings for any of those men, she hated talking about it, that was clear, and, though she loves her high school reunions and meeting up with old friends, as that represented the best memories she had in her years before we met, she never talks about the old boyfriends now. When the subject comes up, from one of our kids or from old friends of hers, she gladly talks about the proms and some of the dates and some of the people she dated, but she avoids talking about the men she was intimate with. She won’t even say their names and changes the subject quickly. She has never brought it up herself again in our marriage, which should have made it all good for me. But it won’t leave me in peace.
Because of the way it hit me that night, I have had a very difficult time dealing with it. And even to this day, I still occasionally go through periods where it will not leave me alone. Sometimes it is triggered by her fluctuating sex drive. I know that I am a man (read: constant overwhelming sex-drive) and she is a woman (read: irregular and not-so-strong sex-drive) and that there is a difference there that is probably true for 90% of marriages. I know that most of the time men use love to get sex and women use sex to get love, so when the relationship is stabile, the man still wants sex (as he equtes that with love) and the woman does not need it as much (since she got the love she used sex to get). But I cannot at times help but think that, since she did all that before we were married, she is now bored with it somewhat. It is old hat for her, been there, done that. But for me, being the only woman I have ever known, it has never lost its magic. It may sound corny, but I treat our time together with reverence. I am not a big fan of “quickies”. I revel in taking my time and making her feel loved and asking her what she wants. I think every time is as wonderful as the first and 12th times (the other 10 or so I spent learning what the hell I was doing and how to do it without poking her eye out or something). But all too often (so it seems to me sometimes) it is obvious she is “servicing” me and it feels empty of emotion. Although she tries as hard as she can to be accomodating and respond to me, it is obvious she is not into it. Her sex drive is of course lower than mine, but sometimes the thought creeps in that it is all “been there, done that” for her. In some ways it even makes me feel cheated. Those other men took something away that I will never get to know.
Now, we have been together for 14 years, so obviously this crap is all in my head. It is not a constant irritant, it just comes up now and then. Like, maybe I am having a hard time, had a bad string of days at work or whatever, and I really could use her coming on to me to help me feel “manly” or just feel wanted when things are going rough, or for whatever reason, and she is not accomodating, maybe she is having a hard time too. I know this is not a big deal but sometimes I can’t help but think “if you had not been with those other guys, you would want me now the way I want you”. I know it is stupid and I never tell her when I feel that way. I will not remind her of her past, as I know it causes her pain. And I know it is really a bunch of crap. But it does affect me. I do not know why it will not just leave me alone.
I do not wonder about the size comparisons. She found it really uncomfortable and painful at the beginning, even though we took our time and she was very into it (obvious by her body’s reaction….had to change the sheets), and even now after 4 kids she still feels me very well and I her, so I figure it is good enough for size. I do not wonder if he was better than me. She told me enough details to know that when he finally talked her into it he rushed to get it in, left it in long enough to make a mess, and her first impression was that sex hurts, ends in 12 seconds, and must not be meant to feel good. The second time they had sex he pressured her into it, saying “you let me once, and now you tease me and that is not right”, stuff like that and she reluctantly laid there while he did his thing, and she said she felt used and dirty afterward. She was very pleasantly surprised to find out after we were married that it was actually fun and pleasurable for the girl, and more. (Can you tell that on that night she gave me a lot of details…far more than I ever wanted to know? I guess the good thing is, she was so open and sincere and wanting me to know the truth, that I know she told me just like it was.) So anyway, I know there are no comparisons to the other guys she was with. She felt used by them all to a greater or lesser degree.
In fact the only concrete affect I know her experiences before we met has on our marriage is oral sex. I love it (giving and receiving), and she enjoys receiving, REFUSES to give. I have never pushed it on her, and she did do it early in our marriage, part of the experimenting thing, but it soon stopped. Now, go back to that night when she told me everything. She detailed a few times when the man she was with, whom she thought would love her and let her remain virtuous, got her in a position where they pushed her to perform oral sex on them and she did not want to, but did anyway for fear of losing them. Because of her experience before we met, she hates it now. She has even told me as much, saying she wants to for me, but cannot bring herself to do it because of the memories. That is something that was taken from me by the pricks (no pun intended) who pushed her into it before. But you know what? It DOES NOT MATTER. Sure I wish that were part of our relationship. And from time to time I gently inquire, hoping to get something mutual going on. But I drop it when she says no, or even when she just balks in her attempt to get into it. I will not hurt her. It does not matter enough to put her through that. But it does not change the fact that I am jealous and angry sometimes at what those bastards took from her, and from me.
But like I said, our relationship is wonderful and I love her more than I can say. I do not know why it still gets to me. I try to tell myself “you are being selfish and insecure”, but that does not change the fact that I am horribly jealous now and then of the fact that other men got to be things to my wife that I did not get to be.
I found it very enlightening what e-head said earlier in this thread:
“You think you are selfish and insecure … ha !
It is not enough for me to be the best all around.
I want to have the biggest penis.
I want to have made love to her the slowest … the fastest … the softest … the hardest … in the most unusual position … at the highest altitude … the lowest … the strangest location … in front of the most people … the most times in one day … and on and on. And that’s just sex.
I want to be the handsomest, the sexiest, have the biggest muscles, the nicest butt.
I want her to love me more than anyone she ever loved before.
I want us to explode with passion and lust and love and merge with the God-head and spend all eternity in a loving sexual embrace.
Maybe I am incredibly insecure, but I would be lying if I said I did not want all these things. I think a lot of others want this too. Hell, maybe it’s not even so crazy to want this afterall. What is crazy is if you let it screw up a good thing.”
He is so right. That is exactly what you want to be. The knight in shining armor. You want to inspire passion every time she looks at you. He is also right that if you let worrying about it and feeling jealous screw up a good thing, that is when you lose out. I think some of these feeling are natural and normal, but it does not make it any easier to deal with. I like that it was confirmed by others on this thread.
I agree with what draper said, that if you are going to tell, tell them what it meant then and tell them what it means now. It is important to realize that no matter what it meant back then, the one you are with now is more important. If they are not, maybe you should not be with them anyway.
If someone has some advice on how to let it go, plese respond or email me. I love my wife desperately (which might be part of the problem =) and I just want to stop thinking about this shit when she is not “in the mood”. I want to let it all go, but it won’t let me go. Simply saying that you should just stop thinking about it is not valid. I have actually gone for a year and more where it did not occur to me, never even entered my head. All is bliss. Then something triggers it (her recent 20 year class reunion was the latest trigger) and it bugs me for a few days to a couple months till I am able to push it aside again. But I want it to be gone forever, to never bother me again.
I do not, believe it or not, wish she had never had those experiences. I know this will sound weird, but I know from the events leading up to us meeting that if much had happened different in her life (or mine for that matter) I likely would never have met her or we would not have had the connection we did to start our relationship. Believe it or not, it actually comes down to meeting on one specific day. Since we grew up in different states and are 2 years apart in age, if we had not met on September 6, 1989 I doubt very much we would be together and I cannot bare that thought even for a second. So in some weird way I should be thankful she had the experiences she did, since it delayed her arrival to the very day I got there as well, and now we have an awesome wonderful life together.
Sometimes it is reconciling those 2 things that drives me nuts. I am horribly jealous and at the same time, thankful, that she did these things with these other guys. AAAAarrrgggghhhhh!!
Anyway, it feels good to just get it out. I never have written this down like this before and I guess I know how my wife felt on that night when she let it all out to me. Kind of a deep breath moment. Hopefully this will help me get past it so it does not continue to come up from time to time. Not that I will ever actually forget anything, just that I can know, and it not bother me.
If you read this far, thanks for listening. If you have any advice, post it or email me.
As far as the last guy who posted here. Chocell, don’t ask what worked for her in the past. Don’t read the latest books. Simply open the lines of communication. Sit down and ask her what she wants from your relationship. Listen to her. Don’t pretend you will automatically be able to give her or be for her what she wants righ off the bat. Ask her to guide you in what you do. Make sure you get a baby-sitter and have some time truly alone. Open the lines of intimacy by doing things for her that do not necessarily have sexual overtones. Help get the kids to bed early one night, lead her to the bedroom, put on some soft music, light a candle or two, and give her a slow, relaxing backrub, and leave it at that. Make sure she knows it is a privilege to be with her, no matter what you are doing. Make sure you date each other still. Go out once a week if you can. Do fun things, maybe things you did when you were dating or try something new. TALK TO HER. Not just about family business but about dreams and funny things you heard at work or brief strolls down memory lane. You need to be able to relax around her and she needs to be able to relax around you. Likely you are both pretty uptight about the sex thing, I guarantee it will weigh on her as well as you. Start the courtship over again, and wait for her to come to you. Be patient, be loving, be kind and gentle. Another thing, make sure you are the father to her children that she (and they) want you to be. Be firm and be loving to them. Give them guidance, discipline and be willing to drop what you are doing to read them a book. One of the very best nights of love-making my wife and I ever had came after she had a frazzled day and I sent her to her room (was a challenge…I made her take a bubble-bath), then I made dinner, sat down to read with the kids, helped them clean up the kitche, sat with all 4 of them on the couch watching the simpsons or something, then tucked them each in. She came out and watched me covertly as I laughed with her children, made them feel loved, and showed I was a strong and gentle father.
Then she attacked me and we went at it for a good 2 hours. I have never seen her more passionate.
Good luck and feel free to email me if you need to talk.
Thanks everybody.
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