Closing the doors: men, aging, younger women, and ego

0 thoughts on “Closing the doors: men, aging, younger women, and ego”

1. Excellent post, Hugo. I’ve heard guys refer to the phenomenon as “bathing in the blood of virgins”. (And, as I said not long ago, my husband refers to the tipping point where the cute young things you’re eyeballing start responding with “Ew.”)

   Of course, not having “it” doesn’t mean being dried-up and useless. My husband is nearing fifty, but I wouldn’t trade him for a harem of men half his age.

2. Or it’s possible your friend just thought she was hot.

   Call it evolutionary biology if you wish, but as a guy only a few months younger than Hugo I know when I look at an attractive young girl I’m not thinking to myself, “Aha! Here’s a chance to ward off the Grim Reaper, to forestall my inevitable aging, to reassure myself that I am still virile and young and strong!” I’m thinking to myself, “Say, she’s got a nice…”

   Well, good taste forbids me to finish. Suffice it to say I believe it’s possible to WAAAYY overthink these things.

3. While I (sort of) get your point about a guy using his attractiveness to a younger woman as denial of mortality, something is still sticking in my craw about the following:

   He was using Starbucks gal as a gauge to measure whether he still had “It”, and she gave him a very clear answer: No.

   Whaddaya mean, “No.”? Like it’s a fact, that because he’s not in the scope of a younger woman, he doesn’t have “it”? Maybe he should meet the girl’s mother before he decides whether he still has “it”. The opinion of the older woman doesn’t count for anything? Maybe because HE thinks SHE doesn’t have “it”?

   So, we’re back to square 1, aren’t we?

4. Let me be clear: “It” is not just sexual desireability — it is linked to that sense of endless potential and promise. Of course lads our age and older can be sexy, but our sex appeal has changed considerably and, one would hope, our sense of potential mates has changed as well. The “It” of youth is one of those doors to close.

5. Chief, you’re also not thinking “Man! Look at that symmetrical facial placement, she’d be an excellent carrier of my genes!”

   Of course, I’m at the age where I see a cute young thing and wonder how much she charges for babysitting.

6. I am absolutely convinced that many of my peers (and men older than myself) chase younger women for precisely this reason. It’s not that women our own age are less attractive, it’s that they lack the culturally-based power to reassure our fragile, aging egos that we are still “younger than our fathers”, still hot and hip and filled with potential.

   Is it even necessarily an active effort to convince yourself you’re young? I’m in my late twenties, but my mind hasn’t caught up to that; somehow I just don’t feel, or think of myself as, that much older than the college student I was several years ago. Maybe when I’m in my thirties, I’ll go through some sort of change and recognize myself as being in a different stage of life. But I suspect a lot of people’s conscious perception of how old they are doesn’t quite catch up with reality.

7. Bravo, Hugo. This post rang true to me. I’ve known the men you describe. And as a woman in my thirties, I also have felt similarly as they do. I have heard the doors closing softly behind me. I think I’m finally getting used to the idea that closing doors is not necessarily a bad thing, and that good things *can* happen once we stop wedging those closing doors open with our own need to cling to youth and the neverending possibility and immortality associated with it.

8. I’m thinking to myself, “Say, she’s got a nice…”

   A lot of us look at young women (OK, older women than would be columnist John Derbyshire’s professed taste, but still young), and think, “Say, she’s got a nice…” But that doesn’t mean we’d all actually consider asking the young woman out. (Even aside from being married and all.)

9. I’m glad you posted this, Hugo, as I’d wondered myself (in an “ICK” way), why your 40ish friend would be interested in a 19-year-old. This explanation makes sense to me.

   jt, I felt as you do only a few short years ago, and somehow around 30 suddenly found that I *liked* being older, and that there’s a great deal of freedom that comes with no longer being a 20-something, complete with the must-be-hip assumption that tags along. Now, at 35 (and with a 2-year-old daughter), I *love* my age. When I angst about age at all, it’s more a matter of having enough time to change the world while I still have energy…but mostly, I just enjoy finally *feeling* like an adult.

10. Hugo, once again I find myself groaning at the condescending and sexist tone of your post. Comments re., e.g., “the fragility of the aging male ego,” comments about how stupid older guys are re. ‘pickup lines’ and how much smarter older women are vis-a-vis seeing through them (tell that to Hollywood types like Elizabeth Taylor, Joan Collins, et al.), derision of the guy in the sports car, etc., suggest the strong probability that you hold men (IMO all non ‘pro-feminist’ and therefore ‘unenlightened’ men) in distain. Couple that with the predictable approach you take not only in seeing this issue as a gendered one, but further, through the grostequely distorting “gender lens,” and what we have here is yet another one-sided exercise in male self-loathing.

    Are we to presume that women don’t go through similar – if not identical – “mid-life crises?” Does the phrase “biological clock” ring a bell? Have you ever been to a “ladies’ night” at a strip club and observed the behavior of the mostly over-30 middle-aged “ladies” towards the young lads? Just who do you think are the major consumers of Botox, cosmetic surgery, etc.? (yes, I know metrosexuals are primping and creaming, but we’re talking numbers and average, not exceptions and outliers) Are you seriously suggesting that those women are thoroughly comfortable with the aging process and not at all trying to keep or recapture their youth?

    The idea that such things as “fragile aging egos” and ‘bioligical clocks’ are somehow gendered is ludicrous, and frankly, laughable.

    And finally, predictably, you dismiss the biological factors involved, but nonetheless, they exist whether you like them, acknowledge them or not. I don’t care how much you and your ilk try to implement ‘social change’ vis-a-vis men’s choices for mates, us regular guys are still going to be more attracted to characteristics that suggest health and fertility than we are to age and infertility, characteristics which just so happen to be found mostly in younger women. Sure, I can appreciate that some older women are “hot,” but put an average younger woman next to her and I suspect that more times than not a regular man – young or old – will choose the younger woman. And no amount of shaming, cajoling and lecturing from the feminist and ‘pro-feminist men’ crowd is going to change that. IMO this has little to do with cultural conditioning and is predominantly due to hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. And sure, an older guy’s going to think that it sucks when a young woman turns down his advances, but have you ever witnessed the scene that occurs when a guy, no matter how old, turns a woman down, no matter how old she is? Heh, your friend Sean’s reaction would pale in comparison.

    My point is that this phenomenon isn’t gendered, but the way you make it sound it’s all about ‘weak, self-absorbed men’ and ‘strong, smart women.’ Or perhaps you’re just using this issue as a foil in yet another jab at men and normal healthy masculinity? How very predictable and IMO sexist. And so it goes.

11. Fortunately, the beleaguered men of the world have you, Mr. Bad, to come to their defense, and set the record straight in the face of my unrelenting nastiness towards all things masculine, honorable, and good. Surely, my brother, when you reach that final gate, you’ll hear “Well done, good and faithful servant.”

    Seriously, my female friends aren’t telling me stories of hitting on guys half their age. When my buddy Seanette details the saga of her Starbucks flirtations with a virile young hot male barista, I’ll blog it. Promise.

12. My own experience fits with Hugo’s thoughts about the attractiveness of inexperience. A few years ago I felt very strongly about someone who was the better part of 20 years younger than me. Looking back I realise that a lot of that attraction was rooted in my own insecurity – I felt that I didn’t have much to offer so I was more comfortable with someone inexperienced. I wasn’t trying to deceive, but I (unconsciously) thought someone who literally didn’t know any better would be less likely to be disappointed in me. (I wish I could have known this at the time – it would have given me a chance of acting more wisely.)

    To quote some advice I saw on another blog – “Girls, if you’re dating an older man, you’re dating someone that more experienced women had the sense to avoid”.

    Ouch.

13. Fortunately, the beleaguered men of the world have you, Mr. Bad, to come to their defense….

    Thanks Bad… it is much appreciated..

14. Wow, Mr. Bad. When Hugo was telling his story, I wasn’t really thinking of it as gendered at all. Women have the same desires for eternally open possibilities. I can see myself in a few more years being in the same place as Hugo and Hugo’s friend, just maybe not with the same metaphorical slap in the face.

    In this case, I rather thought Hugo was talking to everyone, regardless of gender typing. The anecdots are male, because Hugo is male and so is this friend. It doesn’t mean that women see this story and don’t see themselves.

    Hugo, this is a post to bookmark and mull over. Thanks!

15. I can’t help but think of this as the Moonstruck theory, based on these two (more memorable as delivered) scenes:

    Rose: [frustrated] But why would a man need more than one woman?
    Johnny: I don’t know. Maybe because he fears death.
    [Rose looks up, eyes wide, suspicions confirmed]
    Rose: That’s it! That’s the reason!
    Johnny: I don’t know…
    Rose: No! That’s it! Thank you! Thank you for answering my question!

    [LATER SCENE:]

    [This is to her philandering husband and is, if memory serves, out of nowhere:]
    Rose: I just want you to know no matter what you do, you’re gonna die, just like everybody else.

16. Thanks, Technocracygirl –

    Some random thoughts:

    Unlike Mr Bad, I do recognize that Hugo’s focus, in this and other similar posts, on the phenomenon of Older Men/Younger Women has a legitimate point to it. After all, OM/YW thang is practically an *industry. “Girls Gone Wild” may appeal to younger men, too, but the marketing, emphasizing as it does the youth of the girls depicted, is directed at men more my age (45). Evolutionary Biology be damned – the most important thing I took away from reading Dorothy Dinnerstein’s _The Mermaid and the Minotaur_ was that since we humans evolved a brain, we are meant to *use it.* Just because she’s younger doesn’t mean she’s any more fun.

    Now, I don’t think – despite his snarky, dismissive reply to Mr Bad – that Hugo is unaware of older women lusting after younger men. They seldom “hit on” younger men, because, for the most part, straight women in their thirties and older don’t “hit on” potential sexual partners. They drop hints/send signals/present themselves as available and expect the guy to pick up on it. That’s how I hooked up with my professor/now-ex-wife. (In restrospect, I can see there were other offers of a similar kind made me at that little state college in the South, other faculty women who dangled something in my face, only I was just too obtuse at the time to realize it was for real.) I tend to like women my age now. I tended to like women in their late-thirties, early-forties then, too. I expect my taste will be about the same when I’m 80.

    “Ew.” I got that when I was fourteen. Should I have given up then?

    Quite a number of my close women friends have, from time to time, expressed *very visceral* interest in men (and sometimes women) considerably their junior. What holds them back is social embarassment. There’s not a level playing field for men and women here *socially. There’s a stigma attached to women expressing their sexual appetites/desires (being a sexual subject) which does not, generally (except in certain fundamentalist Christian households, in my experience) attach to men’s expressing their sexual appetites/desires. (By expression, I don’t necessarily mean action, but simply expression.) The opposite is true, to an extent, in Oprah-land, but in most of the Western world, Stimmt.

    Mr Bad had me laughing out loud with his observation about what happens when a man turns down a woman… Been there, bubba. Nobody holds such an outraged sense of entitlement as a woman whose close male friend finds her sexually unattractive.. Maybe this is just something that happens to us chunky guys who ought to know better than to aspire above our station…

17. Nobody holds such an outraged sense of entitlement as a woman whose close male friend finds her sexually unattractive

    Except, perhaps, for the close male friend who can’t understand why his female friend won’t sleep with him–after all, he’s such a nice guy! and he listens to her problems! and he’s so much better than that jerk she’s dating!

    Of course it’s true that a lot of middle-aged women drool over young guys; it’s not just social embarassment, though, that holds them back. Our culture doesn’t exactly encourage women to think they ever have “it”, much less when they are past the bloom of youth. The “MILF” phenomenon isn’t about your best friend’s mother hitting on you; the middle-aged woman in that fantasy is passively being judged.

18. Nobody holds such an outraged sense of entitlement as a woman whose close male friend finds her sexually unattractive.

    I always kind of expected my close male friends that I was attracted to not to find me attractive. And I don’t think I ever got angry with them about it, except for once in high school (and even then it was more that he said he would call and didn’t than that he didn’t reciprocate by itself). But, for those who do have that sense of entitlement, I think one of the things that hurts this situation is the way we’re all told again and again that men want to have sex with anyone, anyone at all, at the drop of a hat.

    But I totally agree with you about older women lusting after younger men as well, and also about the difference in the way women have learned to signal their interest.

19. and even then it was more that he said he would call and didn’t than that he didn’t reciprocate by itself

    But I was also, as a teenager, immature in how I responded to his failure to call, so we’re sort of even.

20. I think you’ve it the nail on the head with this one Hugo. Here’s a story for you, seems like kind of a tangent, but actually isn’t.

    Imagine you’re a single guy, late 30′s, party animal, straight and ‘successful’ with women but no steady girlfriend, good-looking, witty, well-educated, smart but no steady job (you do a bit of this, bit of that). Real ‘man-about-town’ character.

    Most mornings you heave yourself out of bed at 10-ish and pop out to the local coffee-bar for your morning caffeine hit. There’s a male barrista just started working there. He looks early twenties and he too often has ‘was out all night partying’ look about him. You often exchange a few words, commiserating with each other on the state of your hang-over, discussing women, moaning about up-tight parents, all young-bloods together.

    Then one morning the barrista is slightly more awake than usual. He looks at you harder than normal and then laughs. “Mikey!” he says (you never told him your name), “You’re a mate of my parents!” and your youthful world crashes about your ears.

    The barrista was my then-17 year old son who was frequently mistaken for much older. I had him when I was 19. Mikey (name changed to minimize his still considerable embarrassment) a friend approximately the same as me who comes to our occasional parties. He still hasn’t really got over my son ageing him 20 years in one sentence. And he’s still trying to come to terms with the fact that he just isn’t young anymore, that he’s old enough to have a son who’s the age he mentally sees himself as.

21. Hugo:

    … my female friends aren’t telling me stories of hitting on guys half their age.

    They’re keeping quiet to preserve your ego! Actually, two good friends of mine each have a long-term partner 20+ years their senior. And in at least one case she was much more pro-active about starting it than he was. So it does happen.

22. Hugo, with all due respect, if you and your friends really do feel this way about aging, in that you have to give closing the door to youth much thought, then you have way too much time on your hands.
    Lynn Gazis-Sax, you make a good point. A lot of what some folks mistake for actual desire is really momentary infatuation that the infatuated sees for what it is. I suspect you also realize that there are a lot of men willing to say that they can have their ridiculous “possibility.”

23. Douglas, what is it with you people who try that tired old “if you have to think about it you’ve got too much time on your hands” smackdown? You talk as though using your head was a last-gasp act of desperation – “Crap! The Viagra hasn’t worked, neither has the hair transplant or the medallion and there isn’t even any wrestling on TV. There’s nothing I can do … but … think! ARRGH, THE PAIN!”.

    I’m with Oriscus on this one – you’re lucky enough to have a brain, so you’re a fool if you choose not to use it.

24. Jeremy, we’ll undoubtedly differ on this, but in my opinion, most men take advancing age with the grace it warrants. They don’t need to think much about doing so. How hard is it to shrug the shoulders and say, “Well, it had to happen sometime”? And yes, of course, some men, perhaps many, don’t accept reality, in this case aging (this assumes OM hitting on YW is strictly a form of Botox). But there’s no epidemic of this sort of man, however ubiquitous he may be; if there were, the L.L. Bean catalog would’ve gone out of business years ago. Sorry, I think the issue is simply disgust that OM feel any attraction at all for YW. Such disgust says more about the people who entertain it than it does about the OM.

25. Relax, Douglas, nobody will take away your copy of Barely Legal.

26. Douglas, I can tell you that the people who feel the most disgust are the uninterested younger women who are being hit on by men in their 40s.

    My 21-year-old daughter is adept at telling those (to her) old guys how unflattering their attentions are; she and her friends started getting overtures (not always polite, either) from men in that age group when she was 16, and five years later she is heartily sick of it and angry as well.

    Douglas, what does this disgust say about these young women, who think these older men should be treating them in an age-appropriate manner?

27. mythago: What copy of “Barely Legal”?

    Jodie: I’m glad your daughter and her friends can take care of themselves. For the record, though, does it mollify them in any way if they’re asked out by men their own age that they’re not interested in?

28. Douglas, I’m trying to puzzle out why you’re deliberately ignoring what’s been said here.

29. Jodie and Douglas, I wrote this post for several reasons — out of concern for women like Jodie’s daughter, and out of concern for men like my friend Sean. Douglas, the shot about “way too much time on my hands” was uncalled for. Musing on gender is what this blog is all about, if you’re not interested, niffle off somewhere else, Breaker boy.

30. I’m trying to put my finger on what’s bothering me so much about this discussion.

    Part of it is that, at 29, my own dating pool seems to “skew younger,” at least partly for the following reasons:

    * Fewer twenty-somethings are (monogamously) married;
    * Fewer twenty-somethings are looking for a potential spouse or father to their children;
    * Many of my interests also “skew younger” – e.g., gaming, television shows, young adult lit;
    * I meet a lot of people via my girlfriend, who’s a grad student;
    * I meet a lot of people online, which skews toward college students with free time and Internet access; and
    * I meet most of the people my own age or older through work, which places them “off limits.”

    Checking OKCupid (dating/quiz site), I find that of my ten “best matches,” one is older than me, one is the same age and eight are younger, some significantly so. (Of course, I think that site skews young too.)

    Another part of it is that I read complaints about people who are “too old” hitting on someone, the tone invariably sounds similar to complaints about people who are “too ugly” or “too fat” having the audacity to be attracted to anyone.

    There’s the idea that we’re reducing people to numbers – while for some folks that may be the appeal (if you’re dating a 21-year-old just to prove something, it probably doesn’t matter which 21-year-old you date), it’s really annoying having to defend my feelings about the few people I’m attracted to based on the characteristics of the vast majority of people I’m not.

    Finally, there’s the whole “life script” idea – that part of “aging” is changing your interests to conform to what’s expected of your age cohort.

31. the tone invariably sounds similar to complaints about people who are “too ugly” or “too fat” having the audacity to be attracted to anyone

    Nobody is saying that older people shouldn’t be attracted to anyone, or should never find younger people attractive. Hugo’s repeatedly said that he’s talking about the phenomenon of older men preferring much younger women exclusively (or near-exclusively).

    There’s a big difference between “of the potential dates I’ve met, many are a few years younger” and “I follow the rule where they have to be half my age plus seven.”

32. I think we have a conflation of scenarios here that makes it difficult to tease out real opinions:

    Scenario 1) older men hitting on younger women in ways that make the younger women feel disgusted. Clearly wrong. (Though I would argue it is never appropriate to hit on someone who doesn’t give positive feedback signals that they are appreciating it, regardless of age difference)

    Scenario 2) Older men who solely seek out much younger women. A sad scenario that probably indicates a lack of interest in anything beyond physical attractiveness. At minimum a lack of apprecation for nuanced personalities.

    Scenario 3) Here is where I feel the interesting question lies (and which I am currently dealing with): We start with a younger woman pursuing an older man (so we’re clearly not in scenario 1). Take as a given that they get along very well on several levels, that there is mutual attraction, and that this is not a case of either money-grubbing on the younger woman’s part or pure lechery on the older man’s part. Now, are you saying that 2 compatible people should _not_ date solely based on a 10 year (say 30 and 20) age difference?

    Granted, given a 20 year old and a woman of the same mold but 8 years older, I’d go with the 28 year old every time, because the additional life experiences make people more interesting, because of the ease of dealing with someone in the same “life stage”, and because of societal pressures to “date one’s own age”. But if said 28 year old doesn’t exist, I find it difficult to pass up an opportunity to explore a relationship with someone who I like and who clearly likes me, because finding real compatibility is a fairly infrequent occurrence (one way interest in either direction happens with some frequency, it is two-way chemistry that is rare).

33. When buying presents sometimes we buy something we would like for ourselves.

    Didn’t she hit on him on behalf of her mum? Maybe she did think step dad, maybe not. She certainly thought he would be attractive to her mum though.

    On aging…
    We not only want to be fit and youthful, we want to hold on to the world of “limitless possibility” that so many of us associate with our teens and twenties.

    This is such a limiting belief! Even when you’re as old as you are (40ish?) you still have “limitless possibility” and at least (if nothing untoward happens) another lifetime in which to explore them. You also get all the benefits life experience brings – seems like a bargain.

    west
    —-

34. mythago said: “Nobody is saying that older people shouldn’t be attracted to anyone, or should never find younger people attractive. Hugo’s repeatedly said that he’s talking about the phenomenon of older men preferring much younger women exclusively (or near-exclusively).”

    Yeah, older women who prefer younger men exclusively? No problem. It’s only those nasty men who are insecure lechers who are afraid of aging and who can’t handle strong, secure, mature women their own age. Uh huh.

    I think that there’s another, simpler reason why we don’t see as many older women hooking up with younger men, and that’s the issue of ‘shelf life.’ Like it or not, even though (some) men might get fatter, grayer and more bald (as some women do, with the last being rare in women) their ‘shelf life’ doesn’t expire the way women’s does. In fact, some people claim that for lots of reasons men get better as they age vis-a-vis desirability as a stable partner, family member, etc. The reality is that young women are attracted to older men a lot more often than young men are attracted to older women. Therefore, the chances of success when an older man makes a pass at a young woman are IMO much higher than when an older woman makes a pass at a young man. Another factor is something that I hit on (pun intended) before, that being the issue of getting snubbed. Since in our society men are expected to make the first move when dating, men are much more used to rejection than women are, and therefore they’re less afraid of and bothered by it when it happens. Call it “the practice effect” (nod to David Brin). Sure, Hugo can talk about the “fragile male ego,” his pal Sean’s reaction to the barrista, etc., but as I said, it doesn’t even come close to the meltdown that occurs when a man turns down a woman. So, IMO the reason we see more OM/YW than OW/YM pairs is because 1) the odds of success are greater for the OM/YW combo, and 2) the emotional consequences are less severe for the OM if/when he gets turned down.

35. So much to respond to, so little space in the comment box!

    Hugo: thanks for taking Douglas to task over the “too much time on your hands” comment – it really pissed me off and it’s nice to see it squished.

    Jeff, you have a good point. When you’re 40-ish and single, you’re stuck with the fact that your age peers are not your lifestyle peers. Like it or not, most people my age are deeply involved with family and home (or the aftermath of their failure). The things that come first for me come very much second (if that) to them. Getting them down to the pub for a drink and a chat is like pulling teeth! If I decide to hang out with people who are similarly available for pubs/gigs/activism, it’s inevitable that my crowd will consist largely of people 10-20 years younger than me.

    Christopher, you say:

    Older men who solely seek out much younger women. A sad scenario that probably indicates a lack of interest in anything beyond physical attractiveness.

    Sad, certainly, but it might also indicate insecurity, or an inability to relate to an equal or something else. The one time I pursued someone much younger than myself it wasn’t physical attractiveness that was the driving force.

    I find it difficult to pass up an opportunity to explore a relationship with someone who I like and who clearly likes me, because finding real compatibility is a fairly infrequent occurrence

    Tell me about it! But don’t forget that someone young and inexperienced is likely to misjudge how compatible the two of you are. That’s the upside of someone more mature – they’ll generally make a better call about how workable the relationship is, and they’re probably more willing and able to do their bit to make it work. (Yes, I did discover this the hard way. Sucks.)

36. Mr. Bad, I turn 50 this year and men half my age do ask me out now and again.

    Personally, I have no interest in pursuing a dating or sexual relationship with someone who lacks the maturity level and life experience I’ve gained.

    What I look for is an equal. I don’t want a student, I don’t want a dependent, and I don’t want a mentee.

    With the advent of my last child leaving home, I find I no longer lack for satisfying partners, even though my pool is limited by requiring age mates and hefty amounts of both creativity and intelligence. This was not true in my early 40s; partners were more difficult to come by, but now I think it was due more to my responsibilities to my children and my time constraints than it was due to me, my looks, or my age.

    What you may perceive as “shelf life” I think may very well translate to what Hugo’s talking about. People aren’t products; women are not foodstuffs. The term “shelf life” gets bandied around a lot, but it is just another way of making people into things, and reducing women to no more value than what they can muster in terms of youth and attractiveness.

    If all you want in a partner is a possession, a thing, I feel sorry for you because you are missing out on a lot. And I feel sorry for your partners who would settle for so little from a companion.

37. Like it or not, even though (some) men might get fatter, grayer and more bald (as some women do, with the last being rare in women) their ‘shelf life’ doesn’t expire the way women’s does.

    By “shelf life” I assume you mean “fertility”? Because I don’t think they’re selling Viagra to women whose “shelf life” is up.

    Yeah, older women who prefer younger men exclusively? No problem.

    Geez, I’m sorry you feel that way. I thought Hugo was trying not to do that thing where he presumes to speak for the other gender–I know how you hate that.

38. This makes me think of Waiter Rant, where the waiter constantly talks about how he has a magical connection with some attractive (usually) young woman at his restaurant, but sadly, nothing happens further.

39. Hi Jeremy: First, thank you your empathy and the good points you make.

    “But don’t forget that someone young and inexperienced is likely to misjudge how compatible the two of you are. That’s the upside of someone more mature – they’ll generally make a better call about how workable the relationship is, and they’re probably more willing and able to do their bit to make it work”

    Really? Personally, I’m not sure that my judgment has really improved all that much over time. I also note that of the 20-odd weddings I’ve been to, more than half involved a relationship that started in undergrad (and all but one of those are still happily married), which implies that people often do make good calls at that age. And I’ve seen people my age who are otherwise sensible people make horrible calls and get badly burned by it. I feel like a lot of the emotionally sensible people partner up early, leaving a dating pool that naturally becomes enriched with pickier and less stable people over time.

    (I of course claim that I’m perfectly stable. I will grant that if I had been less picky, I’d probably have married my college girlfriend, and it probably would have been ok) (and I guess that’s a data point for your younger people are less “willing to make it work” argument)

40. “I feel like a lot of the emotionally sensible people partner up early, leaving a dating pool that naturally becomes enriched with pickier and less stable people over time.”

    Wow. I married at later age. I had no idea I was more likely to be “pickier and less stable” as a person.

    Seriously though, I think how one looks at this really depends on one’s social circle. While it may be perfectly normal in certain circles to meet future spouses as undergrads, that may not be the norm in other circles. Both are valid.

41. In general, both men and women at any age should be able to choose what doors they want to close. There are a whole lot of “shoulds” out there. As a Christian, I look at scripture. (If you’re not a Christian you may choose to not look at scripture. Your choice.)

    Does Scripture regulate the ages between married partners?
    No. Anyone who does presume to regulate is referencing OUR PATICULAR culture. Scripture talks about adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lust, pride, murder, gluttony, etc. Scripture is not shy about dealing with important stuff. I’m pretty sure we would have verses on age differences if it were a major problem.

    Now personally, at age 33, I doubt that there are many women under 25 who could handle my flavor. BUT, that is MY perspective. Why should I tell others to “close” doors?

42. mythago said: “I thought Hugo was trying not to do that thing where he presumes to speak for the other gender–I know how you hate that.”

    Really? Hugo not speaking for or on behalf of women? (you know, the “other gender”) Since when?…

    Yeah, I’m mostly using “shelf life” in the context of fertility. In other words, what most people are concerned with when they decide they want to settle down and start a family.

43. A scientific fact that hasn’t been publicized much: The incidence of genetic mutation in both sperm and eggs increases in humans after 40. Men continue to produce sperm after 40 but the percentage of viable sperm cells decreases with age, just as the percentage of viable eggs decreases with age in women. Statistically it will take a woman longer to get pregnant if her partner is over 40 than it will if her partner is under 35.

44. What you may perceive as “shelf life” I think may very well translate to what Hugo’s talking about. People aren’t products; women are not foodstuffs. The term “shelf life” gets bandied around a lot, but it is just another way of making people into things, and reducing women to no more value than what they can muster in terms of youth and attractiveness.

    The problem is, it’s not just Mr. Bad, or even just men… Women *are* reduced to a “product”. Women are valued in terms of youth.

    I was in the doctors office this afternoon looking at a Texas Monthly today and thinking about the discussion here. I thought I’d count the women over 30 in it. Out of dozens and dozens of pictures of women, in the articles and in the ads, I found two. Yes two. Most were under 21. This is a 200 page magazine on politics and travel, supposedly aimed at an older more sophisticated audience. Both of those were “beauty” ads offering a more youthful look.

    TV and movies are worse. None of them take into account “power differentials” or levels of maturity in the women. Or experience or intelligence. They sell the sex.

    Western society has painted sexuality as a function of youth. Men get to offset some of that because power is sexy as well. We worship youth. Is it any wonder older men and women are attracted to it as well?

    Douglass may have had a good point. I am sure that there are some men that get the ego boost from dating younger women. Some men and women might need this. It’s certainly easier to paint it as a men’s ego problem.

    But maybe we are over-analyzing this a bit. Maybe we are just conditioned to accept that youth really has more value.

45. “I’ve heard guys refer to the phenomenon as ‘bathing in the blood of virgins.’” Really? Yikes, Mythago! In all my 52 years I don’t think I’ve ever heard a man say that. I might be running with the right crowd after all.

    Anyway, I *think* when Hugo said “much younger women” he really meant “very young women.” Just before Labor Day my 76 year old mother introduced me to her 94-year-old “special friend.” Even though she’s nearly 20 years younger he seems like a really nice guy and they’re both clearly very fond of each other. I don’t think anyone’s objected to their relationship.

    And even the “very young women” distinction is kind of a problem because presumably there’s some age before which it’s still ok for young men to be attracted to them, and then at some arbitrary birthday (25? 35? 39? 40?) they should stop. And then conversely you gotta ask if there’s a corresponding age for women, by the way, when it stops being unnatural to be attracted to older men.

    —

    The point of all this hair-splitting, Hugo, is that while there are chronological issues to be explored, it seems like you’ve identified a list of issues you say are specific to men — some of which are clearly related to aging (graying hair, recognition of mortality) and others that I would argue only become apparent with aging (fixation on specific partners of a certain narrow range.) To spend time condemning one while waving at others seems like a good way to miss an opportunity for broader insight.

    figleaf

46. Does Scripture regulate the ages between married partners?
    No. Anyone who does presume to regulate is referencing OUR PATICULAR culture.

    Actually, I think it’s perfectly OK to have non-scriptural rules about sexual choices that are tied to OUR PARTICULAR culture, in at least some cases. For example, it’s an abuse of authority in our particular culture for a psychiatrist to be romantically involved with his or her patient; that rule would make no sense in the world of the Bible, because there is no psychiatrist/patient relationship there.

    Now, I don’t happen to think that “never, ever have a relationship with a fully adult person twenty years younger than you” is a rule that’s nearly as much needed in this culture as “psychiatrists, hands off your patients.” (What I’d think of a twenty year age gap depends on rather a lot of other things.) But I don’t see that the Bible prevents us from saying that people may have situational (or even culturally constrained) obligations in addition to the more absolute ones.

    Yeah, I’m mostly using “shelf life” in the context of fertility. In other words, what most people are concerned with when they decide they want to settle down and start a family.

    People who really, seriously want to settle down and have kids should aim to do it when both parties are relatively young. Men who think they don’t have to worry about their own “shelf life,” but only that of their wives, will risk, first, some declining fertility of their own, and, second, declining attractiveness to women young enough to have their children. Over thirty may be OK, but if you’re serious about becoming a parent, it’s unwise to be waiting till your forties to settle down.

47. Sheila said: “A scientific fact that hasn’t been publicized much: The incidence of genetic mutation in both sperm and eggs increases in humans after 40. Men continue to produce sperm after 40 but the percentage of viable sperm cells decreases with age, just as the percentage of viable eggs decreases with age in women. Statistically it will take a woman longer to get pregnant if her partner is over 40 than it will if her partner is under 35.”

    This is really a Red Herring because men produce many millions of sperm cells per ejaculation. Therefore, even though viability decreases as men age, they still produce at least hundreds of thousands of viable sperm cells per ejaculation. The non-viable cells simply don’t reach the egg, however, all it takes is one viable sperm cell to fertilize an egg so the rest don’t really matter. The idea of the difference in “shelf life” between men and women is actually very important because after menopause the probability of a woman having a child is exactly zero; men the same age can and do have healthy, normal children, in fact, quite easily.

    As for attraction, as another put it, power is sexy, so I would argue that’s one reason why men are seen to age more like wine than milk. Add wealth into the ‘sexiness factor’ and we have an easy explanation re. why people like Anna Nicole Smith hook up with old geezers and (in her case pretend to) have their children. Sure, many times it’s simply Goldigging, but I have to believe that at least in some cases it isn’t. But then again, maybe I’m wrong about that last part.

48. Hardly a red herring:

    http://www.fertstert.org/article/PIIS001502820600104X/abstract

    http://www.malebiologicalclock.com/

    http://www.webmd.com/content/article/67/80098.htm

49. Honestly? Men experience less of a decline in their fertility with age than women do, and they experience (on average) less of a decline in their attractiveness to the opposite sex over time. That’s not the same thing as aging “more like wine than like milk”; only a few young women actually find older men sexier than younger ones (and there’s also a set of men, even if a minority, who prefer women who are much older than them). Most average Joes, who don’t have incredible wealth and power, aren’t, when they’re approaching 40, seen as hot by most nineteen-year-olds.

    Obviously if you’re as rich as Bill Gates, your mileage may vary.

    Doesn’t mean it’s not OK to find people younger than you attractive; I find people younger than me attractive as well. It just means that, if you actually try to date them, you can expect to be shot down a lot. And, you know, if I were to make myself presentable and approach one nineteen-year-old guy after another, I’d probably eventually find one who’d find my offer acceptable (I’d just have to be prepared to take a bunch of rejection to get there). I did, after all, get allegedly young guys asking me to remove my shirt when I had a webcam up (until my husband and I decided it would be better to train the webcam on the cat). Since it’s the Internet, some of them may have actually been 80, but some of them might really have been as young and horny as they said. At the same time, I’m realistic enough to know that most hot young guys aren’t going to find a forty-something woman particularly desirable.

    But, you know, if you happen to be Demi Moore with Ashton Kushner, and it’s actually working for you, go you. And the same, as far as I’m concerned, if you happen to be an older man with a relationship with a younger woman that’s working for both of you (and doesn’t have authority relations tangled in it, and the younger person is, you know, an actual adult).

50. “Statistically it will take a woman longer to get pregnant if her partner is over 40 than it will if her partner is under 35.”

    So a guy over 40 has to make more attempts at it to get his partner pregnant, even if she’s younger. More sex in order to get the desired result. Oh, what a nightmare. Work, work, work.

    Even if that’s true, it doesn’t change the fact that women have an “absolute shelf life” and men don’t (note that Charlie Chaplin was still producing kids in his 80s.) A man can delay having children into his 40s while he gets his career in order and then find a younger partner and have as many kids as he wants. A woman can delay having children into her 40s while she gets her career in order and then find a younger partner and…well, her problem still isn’t solved. Fertility starts a steady decline for her in the late 20s and at one point is going to absolutely end. Sorry, it’s just the way God, evolution, Xemu or whatever made us.

51. Fertility starts a steady decline for her in the late 20

    Fertility doesn’t appreciably decline until the mid-30s, and it’s not as though it then becomes impossible to conceive. As you say, it just takes more effort, oh the horror!

    Having children is also not just a matter of the ‘shelf life’ of your gametes. If you’re a man who wants to be more to your kids than a paycheck, you’re going to have less energy and probably less time–and if you want to dance at your daughter’s wedding, your odds of being alive and healthy to do so are way better when your daughter was born when you were 25 rather than 45. There is also research showing that paternal age affects the likelihood of birth defects; the cells that generate sperm just aren’t as perky in older men as in the young guys.

    If you have lots and lots of money and power, a woman half your age may decide she doesn’t mind so much the risk of being a single parent and merry widow in her autumn years; but as Lynn says, for the average Joe, there’s not much reason a young woman would prefer an older man over one closer to her age.

52. Well, yeah, extremely succesful men can keep having children until they die, and then some.

    But the average guy can’t.

    Say, if I go and have 4 children, 2 girls and 2 boys, I have a much better CHANCE of having grandchildren by my girls than by my boys. Sure, they have a limit to the children they can have, but they can have them, as opposed to men, who don’t have the slightest way to control the outcome of their reproductive success. Even when they do get married and have children, it is by will (or charity) of a woman who chooses to carry their baby (and not, say… the milkman’s).
    So a man can delay having children into his forty’s, get his career straight, marry a young honey who has six babies, and his problem (the certainty of having had any success transmitting his genes) still isn’t solved. And THAT’S the way God, evolution, Xemu or whatever made us.

    Back to topic though, I think it’s sweet that a girl was thinking about her mom, and I agree with someone above in the thread that said that she was probably attracted to the guy herself. The thing about closing doors is spot on. There’s much more to live in the present if you embrace it than if you try to navigate the present holding on to things that are gone. Since every choice you make limits you’re future choices, the only way to keep the endless choices of youth would be to not do anything. Wouldn’t that be fun?

53. I’m not convinced that men experience less of a decline than women in their attractiveness as they age. Clearly it’s *assumed* that this is so, but I just don’t see it in the people around me. I think this may be just another cultural assumption that is so ingrained that people don’t even question it, as is the assumption that men don’t have to be concerned with their age as it relates to fertility.

54. I’m not convinced that men experience less of a decline than women in their attractiveness as they age.

    Well, not in the sense that middle-aged men show fewer wrinkles, or get less gray hair, or gain less weight, or keep themselves more fit, or that their photographs are any more beautiful than the photographs of middle-aged women. But in the sense that, in the actual culture we live in, the minority of women who like older men is larger than the minority of men who like older women, and the minority of men who get to use wealth and power to compensate for their otherwise declining attractiveness is larger than the set of women who can do the same, I do think men have a little slower decline in their ability to attract partners. Not nearly as much less of a decline, though, for the average Joe, as people sometimes make out.

55. Lynn, I pretty much agree with everything you wrote. I’ll just add, though, that as women have gained financial independence and more power in the world, the desire to find a man with money and power is less strong. I’d suggest that for most women these days, it’s more important to find a man who is capable of being a good companion in an egalitarian partnership than a sugar daddy.

56. the minority of women who like older men is larger than the minority of men who like older women…

    I’d agree. But I wonder if this is already starting to change as women become the true economic and social equals of men. The “men get sexier as they get older, while women don’t” notion is an entirely culturally constructed one, I think — and one that may well shift.

57. Sheila and Hugo, I agree that all of this is shifting as women gain financial independence and power (for instance, two of my three sisters are married to younger men, but I can’t think of any relatives in my mother’s or grandmother’s generation who did the same).

58. The Male Biological Clock

    It seems logical that the quality of a man’s sperm would decline with age. It probably does, but there is little in the way of conclusive scientific proof. The studies that I have seen are miserable at controlling variables. Throwing away all morality, how would we hypothetically construct an experiment that follows the the scientific model to the letter? I would have a large sample size. Men in their 50s would have sex with women in their late teens for a period of 1 year. Pregnancies would be recorded and then the offspring would be studied longitudinally for their entire lives. Next, men in their late teens would have sex with the same women for a period of 1 year. The same statistical information would be recorded. With such a study we would have only 1 variable: the age of the men. Two thoughts on this: 1. This type of research would be so easy to do as a godless, immoral Nazi.
    2. It is REALLY difficult to teach the concept of controlling variables to 10 year olds when it comes science fair time!

    Sidebar: Most of the special ed kids in my district don’t have older parents. In my particular district special ed kids tend to be black, male, and have very young parents ( both mother and father (if around)) The couple of kids with an older father and a younger mother happen to have IQs that could cause third degree burns.

    Response to Lynn

    I think that we can make rules that are culturally based, but I think the we should openly acknowledge that they ARE culturally based. A few very conservative churches will actually preach from the pulpit that interracial marriage is “not God’s best.” They can even cite statistics that show that interracial marriages end in divorce more often than same-race marriages. Should the white guy who is attracted to black women “close the door?” I can’t find any scripture about that. As a christian, I personally would rather focus on closing doors to things that are mentioned as problems in scripture.

    When would a woman prefer an older man to a younger man?

    I think it comes down to the way she is treated by men her age. There are some great young guys and then there are some (way too many!!! arghh!!!) that just aren’t mature and don’t treat women well. Many women seek out older men because they want to be treated better than they have before.

    About men aging better than women

    I’m stunned by the number of wrinkles many women my age have. It may have something to do with the fact that women have thinner skin, but I can’t help but wonder if it isn’t due to all that “laying out” many of them did in their teens. I don’t remember nearly as many guys intentionally getting sun exposure back then. My nana had great skin for a women in her 90s, but she was from an era where ladies wore hats outside. Also, some older women are attractive not so much because they look a certain way, but because they ooze confidence.

59. It probably does, but there is little in the way of conclusive scientific proof.

    There haven’t been many studies. What I have seen actually supported is a correlation between paternal age and Down’s syndrome (though not nearly as strong a correlation as with maternal age), and some recent findings suggesting a link between paternal age and autism–the latter still very much at the ‘we need to look into this further’ stage.

60. Dave said: “When would a woman prefer an older man to a younger man?”

    “I think it comes down to the way she is treated by men her age. There are some great young guys and then there are some (way too many!!! arghh!!!) that just aren’t mature and don’t treat women well. Many women seek out older men because they want to be treated better than they have before.”

    And vice versa, i.e., that young women tend to treat men (in general) far better than their older peers. We’ve discussed this aspect before (and I’ve been criticized savagely for speaking the truth about this from a male-friendly POV) so that’s all I’ll say on the topic.

61. mythago said: “There haven’t been many studies. What I have seen actually supported is a correlation between paternal age and Down’s syndrome (though not nearly as strong a correlation as with maternal age), and some recent findings suggesting a link between paternal age and autism–the latter still very much at the ‘we need to look into this further’ stage.”

    Ah yes, correlation. Just like wearing bras is correlated with dying from breast cancer. Uh huh. As Dave said, controlling for all the potential counfouding variables is a nightmare and only possible in multivariate analyses. And that’s assuming that one even knows enough about them to measure them in the first place.

62. Mr. Brad wrote:

    “I’m stunned by the number of wrinkles many women my age have. It may have something to do with the fact that women have thinner skin, but I can’t help but wonder if it isn’t due to all that “laying out” many of them did in their teens. I don’t remember nearly as many guys intentionally getting sun exposure back then. My nana had great skin for a women in her 90s, but she was from an era where ladies wore hats outside. Also, some older women are attractive not so much because they look a certain way, but because they ooze confidence.”

    Hm. I’d have to say here that this seems to be an issue of how much melanin your skin is endowed with more than whether you’re male or female. It seems a ludicrous argument to say that sun damage affects women more than men. Is there a study finding that women are more likely to get melanoma? No.

    The “melanin-challenged” among us, however, should be extra cautious about sun exposure (although wearing sunscreen is probably wise for people of all skin-tones), regardless of gender.

63. Well, I’m covered in wrinkles, and I’m not even forty yet. Crow’s feet, laugh lines, you name it. Of course, living outdoors and running in sun and wind for years and years has a lot to do with it. The real question is, are wrinkles considered less of a detriment for men than for women? Traditionally, the answer has been yes, but that too may be changing.

    But my wife likes my wrinkles, so it’s all good.

64. Well, your kids are grown, Mr. Bad, so I don’t think you need to worry about whether the cells responsible for generating sperm in your body are just as mortal as all your other cells.

    And Hugo–word. I go by the Velveteen Rabbit theory of advancing age. My spouse’s wrinkles and gray hairs aren’t a sign that I should sell him to the glue factory; they’re part of growing old and sharing a life together. Young people can be cute, but I can’t help (from my jaded, ageist perspective) seeing them as blank canvases.

65. Blank canvases! Love it! That is perfect. I am borrowing that.

66. I thought best way to avoid wrinkles was not to smoke. Not crisping yourself in the sun is probably a close second.

    As for the Male Biological Clock, as always, the Onion nails it: Ladies, This Is As Handsome As I’m Going To Get.

67. Christopher:

    I’m not sure that my judgment has really improved all that much over time.

    Well, me neither, truth be told. In fact recent events suggest that it’s getting worse, which is not encouraging.

    … people often do make good calls at that [undergrad] age.

    Yes, I’ve seen that. I guess I’m saying that the real problem is immaturity, rather than youthfulness. Sure, there are undergrads who are mature enough to choose their partner wisely (I’ve known some). But even though youth doesn’t guarantee immaturity it certainly correlates with it, so if you are looking at someone much younger than you are then you are stacking the odds against yourself.

68. Dave: I think it comes down to the way she is treated by men her age. There are some great young guys and then there are some (way too many!!! arghh!!!) that just aren’t mature and don’t treat women well. Many women seek out older men because they want to be treated better than they have before.”

    And vice versa, i.e., that young women tend to treat men (in general) far better than their older peers. We’ve discussed this aspect before (and I’ve been criticized savagely for speaking the truth about this from a male-friendly POV) so that’s all I’ll say on the topic.

    I don’t really get this. If part of the appeal of older men is that they’ve potentially outgrown immaturity issues, why wouldn’t this be an appeal of older women as well? Is it just that we have very different standards for what constitutes “treating someone well” based on gender?

69. Sheila attributed to me: “I’m stunned by the number of wrinkles many women my age have. It may have something to do with the fact that women have thinner skin, but I can’t help but wonder if it isn’t due to all that “laying out” many of them did in their teens. I don’t remember nearly as many guys intentionally getting sun exposure back then. My nana had great skin for a women in her 90s, but she was from an era where ladies wore hats outside. Also, some older women are attractive not so much because they look a certain way, but because they ooze confidence.”

    Sheila, I realize that you feminists get in snit about just about anything I say here, but please, if you want to retain any credibility at least get the author of the comments that send you into a case of the vapours correct.

    I did not say that – I think you should take this up with Dave.

70. Jeff asked: “I don’t really get this. If part of the appeal of older men is that they’ve potentially outgrown immaturity issues, why wouldn’t this be an appeal of older women as well? Is it just that we have very different standards for what constitutes “treating someone well” based on gender?”

    Jeff, first off, let’s be clear that I’m talking about averages and generalities and that surely not all women and men are as I describe in the following.

    The issue with older women isn’t so much a matter of “immaturity” as you and Hugo describe for young men, it’s about maturity vis-a-vis the way women “mature.” From what I hear from other non-feminist and non-pro-feminist men – and can see from personal experience as well – many women in First World societies get evermore “bitchy,” misandrist, high-maintenance and just plain unpleasant as they age. Now, whether you see this is “maturing,” or as I do, reverting to pre-adolescent self-absorption, the result is the same: On average, First World women apparently get less desirable as they “mature” while apparently(according to Hugo and the girls), First World men start out as “immature,” self-absorbed, etc., and “grow up” as they age, so the reverse occurs. Men grow up and women grow ‘down.’ IMO the crossover point re. “maturity” is probably somewhere in the late 20s/early 30s, where we see the majority of marriages taking place.

    It’s an interesting phenomenon and IMO one worthy of studying, but personally I don’t believe that academia has the cajones to buck political correctness and take it on.

71. Many women in First World societies get evermore “bitchy,” misandrist, high-maintenance and just plain unpleasant as they age.

    In contrast to your increasingly pleasant, charming and in no way misogynist self, you mean?

72. Mr. Bad, we’ve already been over the point that for somebody who rhapsodizes about the fresh, unjaded approach of young women, you are pretty much the poster child for jaded, cynical, war-of-the-sexes-lovin’ middle age yourself. Why do you impose a standard on middle-aged women you yourself don’t seem inclined to follow?

73. Well, I can see that I struck a nerve with at least Jeff and mythago (no surprises there) but really, ad hominem arguments don’t cut it, at least not with me. Even though you two seemed to have skipped over the part where I said that this doesn’t apply to all womenor all men, the fact remains that if/when one actually goes out and talks to real, living non-feminist men (like I do) what I’ve related to you is exactly what one hears.

    You know, it doesn’t matter to me whether or not you believe me. By all means go on believing that women play no role whatsoever and therefore are not at all responsible for the OM/YW phenomenon and instead that it’s all men’s fault, that we’re all just a bunch of jaded, cynical, insecure, immature, leacherous losers. And certainly go on acting as you see fit based on those beliefs. And after that, maybe, someday you’ll be able to look into the eyes of the men you berate and figure out what I’ve been talking about.

74. I don’t really get this. If part of the appeal of older men is that they’ve potentially outgrown immaturity issues, why wouldn’t this be an appeal of older women as well? Is it just that we have very different standards for what constitutes “treating someone well” based on gender?

    I think you’ve nailed it. When I look back on all the immature ways young guys messed with me when I was young, I was pretty much messing with them in similar immature ways. Other than the double standard about middle-aged cynicism that you and mythago have already pointed out, what I see is that people get, on average, more ready to be faithful as they get older, but somewhat less adaptable.

    Since culturally we tend to assume that the way men go bad is to cheat on women, while women just naturally don’t cheat much on men, we tend to assume that men will improve more with age than women will. Also, we expect older people to abuse drugs and alcohol less, and take fewer stupid risks, which again are things we culturally assume women won’t do much anyway.

    Meanwhile, we pretty much all get a little “bitchier” with age in the sense of being more set in some of our ways and more clear on what changes we’re no longer willing to make, but somehow that same change doesn’t get counted to be as much of a negative in men as in women.

75. Shorter Mr. Bad – “Older women won’t put up with my shit. What a bunch of babies! Wah-wah-wah-wah-waaaa-aaaaaa-aaah!”.

    … maybe, someday you’ll be able to look into the eyes of the men you berate and figure out what I’ve been talking about.

    I think we figured you out a long time ago.

76. Boy, Mr. Bad, if anyone got a nerve hit around here, it seems to be you.

77. the fact remains that if/when one actually goes out and talks to real, living non-feminist men

    I think that would have to be “if/when one actually goes out and talks to real, living anti-feminist men.” Because I talk with real, living non-feminist men (in the sense that they don’t particularly identify themselves as feminist) every day of my life, and a lot of them seem quite happy to be growing old with same-aged wives.

78. “The rules of chasing girls are the same as the rulesof blackjack: you want to get as close as possible to 21.”

    A couple of things:

    Older women tend to be married. Younger women tend to be single.

    Younger women are more amenable to casual dating. Older women want to get arried and have kids before their time runs out.

    younger women are HOT. Why is this not being considered?

    A friend of mine, who is a serious mack daddy pickup artist, assures me that THE most desirable agefor a man is 38.

79. Joe, as I’ve pointed out before, if your sense of what is “HOT” is the same at 39 as it was at 19, brother, you’ve failed to launch. The objects of our desire should age along with us.

80. According to whom?

81. According to my post here: http://hugoboy.typepad.com/hugo_schwyzer/2006/10/i_am_home_from_.html

82. Younger women are more amenable to casual dating. Older women want to get arried and have kids before their time runs out.

    So the assumption is that men get more desirable with age because they’re more likely to want to settle down, and women get more desirable with youth because they’re less likely to want to settle down?

83. Hugo,

    The import of this post seems to be: “Liking youger women is a sign of emotional immaturity and I know this because I am not attracted to younger women. Not at all. Never have been.”

    This is clearly fallacious. Lets change a few nouns around:

    “Being sexually attracted to one’s own gender is a sign of immorality and decadence, and I know this because I am not attracted to my own gender.”

    “Dating outside of one’s race is a sign of self hatred, and I know this because I am only attracted to my own people.”

    Both those arguements are ones that people actually hold. I object to what I call “relentless semiotics”–the tendency to assume that things mean things.

    You state in your post that you are “blessed” with only being attracted to your own age. I’m not going to call you a liar, although I DO find it hard to believe that you’re not aroused by the sight of perky breasts and smooth skin, and I WOULD like to hook you up to a plethysmograph. But assuming its true, such a proclivity is a blessing indeed. Especially for one of your politics. But a blessing, by definition, is exceptional. Liking young women is normal: As you point out, Scarlett Johannsen is rated the sexiest women alive…and there aren’t a lot of 39 year olds working in strip bars.

    You’ve taken a quirk in your wiring and assigned it to the semiotic value of “maturity”. I’m not going to presume to tell you your religion, but sn’t this a tad un-christian?

84. Joe, hook me up to whatever you like. I have eyes only for my wife, but if I step back from that for a second, I can tell you with absolute sincerity that Mariska Hargitay is sexier than Scarlett Johannson. When I was 19, I would not have thought so.

    Look, what I’m rejecting is the claim of evolutionary biology. We have an obligation not to sexualize those who need us to be strong and reliable adults. To me, compatability of life experience is erotic; disparate experience is a turn-off. And yes, to me, wanting a sexual relationship with someone old enough or young enough to be parent or child is evidence of some kind of failure to work through parent issues.

    For me, the incest taboo kicks in. Thinking a girl who could be my daughter is sexy is nearly the same thing as wanting to have sex with my own daughter.

85. I agree with you that Mariska Hargitay is a fine looking woman.

    There is a difference between saying that something squicks you out and saying that it is a sign of emotional immaturity or psychological distress. And again, I have shown statistical evidence that attraction to youth is the rule, not the exception. Is our entire society emotionally immature?

    Note also that “attraction” doesn’t mean “relationship material.” Many is the happily married man that sneaks out to a titty bar to ogle young flesh.

    I haven’t argued from evolutionary biology.

    It seems to me to be a much stronger position to say “I cacknowlege attraction to younger women, but I will not act on it on moral grounds” than to say “I am not attracted to younger women and those that are are sickos.”

86. And again, I have shown statistical evidence that attraction to youth is the rule

    You’ve shown what? “I think young women are TEH HAWT” and bragging about being one removed from a ‘mack daddy’ are not evidence. Except maybe in a Penthouse Forum letter.

87. Thinking a girl who could be my daughter is sexy is nearly the same thing as wanting to have sex with my own daughter.

    You might as well say that thinking a woman your own age is sexy is nearly the same thing as wanting to have sex with your sister. I agree with you wholeheartedly on most of what you say about radically older/younger person relationships, but this is really reaching, especially since I thought you didn’t have any daughters yet. Daddy complexes are common enough in reality that there’s no need to invent them where there’s no evidence. A relationship doesn’t have to be pseudo-incestuous to be wrong or unhealthy, or just unwise.

88. Sophonisba, remember that I write from the perspective of a college professor and youth leader. I am constantly around 14-22 year-olds in professional and paraprofessional contexts.

89. >>And again, I have shown statistical evidence that attraction to youth is the rule

    >>>>You’ve shown what? “I think young women are TEH HAWT” and bragging about being one removed from a >>>>’mack daddy’ are not evidence. Except maybe in a Penthouse Forum letter.

    See above:

    Scarlett Johannsen is rated the sexiest women alive…and there aren’t a lot of 39 year olds working in strip bars.

    Maybe not technically “statistical” but pretty persuasive. This is not to say that older women are necessarily unattractive (Angelica Houston is teh hawt) but in terms of correspondence to standards of raw physical attractiveness, youth IS beauty.

    I don’t see how having a friend that does supernaturally well with women is a cause for bragging. Don’t you know people like that?

90. 38? My friends (women in their 20s), would ewww you to death.
    In fact, I think the OM/YW only works when the woman is of lower class. Of course there are many well-balanced relationships with big age gaps, but I think we’re talking about the not-so-muchs, so:
    A young woman would probably not go for an older man for nothing. They stand to lose a lot from sustaining this relationship: their friends won’t hang out with the boyfriend and their friends will not approve of hooking up with an OM.
    If they are willing to blow off support system of their peers, my guess is that they are trading it for support they consider sturdier (a rich guy, an influential guy, a stepping stone to something).
    I think same goes for YM/OW relationships. Youth is capital, Joe said it when he mentioned the lack of strippers who are over 39.

91. I think same goes for YM/OW relationships.

    I dunno about that.. In my mid 20′s I hooked up with a woman six years my senior.

    The sex was better. She was way more mature and had way more in common with me than the younger women I knew. And she was over with all the silly game playing. It had nothing to do with power differentials or being a stepping stone or whatever. She was plain just more fun and less hassle to be with.

    Must have worked out ok. We’ve been married for 21 years…

    Young girls might be nice to look at, but as potential partners, they are highly over rated..

92. Folks, the intent of the thread was to help us engage in some healthy self-examination, not condemnation of others for their youth, their age, or their sexual choices.

93. But traditional male entitlment means NEVER having to self-examine. Mr. Bad is just mad that women don’t like him, so it’s all our fault by being gold-diggers and treating men badly as we get older (ie, not doing exactly what he wants when he wants it.)

    Joe doesn’t think of women as people at all. So he can keep doing what feels good.

    Hugo now RULES!!!! Thanks for the post dude. And I’m totally going to be the old lady with the young man. The paradigm has changed, the guys my age don’t like the feminist bitchy but the younger ones have opener minds and are easier to deal with and actually have been around the idea of strong sexy older women enough that it is more attractive than flighty youth. Can’t imagine marrying anyone at this point though.

    Love the idea of a partner, really don’t know about a husband.

94. Hugo now RULES!!!!

    At last, at last, my evil scheme is starting to work. Gratias deo ago

95. The sex was better. She was way more mature and had way more in common with me than the younger women I knew.
    …..

    Young girls might be nice to look at, but as potential partners, they are highly over rated..

    Agreed completely! So far I’ve been exclusively discussing physical attractiveness, which is not the only criteria on which one evaluates a mate. Really young women are hot, but may not make good partners.

    Incidentally, I think its true that really hot women (“tens” and the like) tend to be lousy in bed.

96. Joe, one more like that and you’re banned.

97. Joe, posting one person’s choice of ‘hottest men’ is not exactly statistical evidence. Sorry.

    sophonisba – there’s a big difference between finding a much younger person attractive, and finding only much younger people attractive. Mr. Dad Of A Teenage Daughter thinking “She’s sexy” about a teenage girl who passes by him on the street is far different than Dad being totally uninterested in women older than 21. And Dad is going to be seeing a lot of teenage girls around (his daughter’s friends, teammates, classmates and so on) – how wise is it for him to be thinking about these girls as potential partners?

98. OK,Hugo, it’s your blog. But just so I can watch my step in the future, what set you off? What did I do wrong? I said that physical attractiveness was not sufficient criteria by which to evaluate a potential mate…isn’t that a good progressive opinion? Is it offensive to you to evaluate a partner’s sexual performance? To generalize based on attractiveness?

    This isn’t sophistry, I’m really trying to understand.

99. Joe, you made a whopping generalization about hot women being lousy in bed — and that kind of generalization, with tremendous capacity to offend, is unacceptable. (Mr. Bad, spare us all the comment in which you accuse me of hypocrisy. My blog, my rules, and if I contradict myself, I contradict myself.)

100. Joe, posting one person’s choice of ‘hottest men’ is not exactly statistical evidence. Sorry.

     “Sexiest Men Alive” isn’t one person’s opinion, its an title awarded by people magazine. I think its an pretty accurate barometer of public taste, although there is certainly room for individual disagreement. I think its a travesty that “Traffic” got an oscar, but I’d never contend that I’m not in the minority.

101. “Incidentally, I think its true that really hot women (“tens” and the like) tend to be lousy in bed. ”

     Maybe that’s just ’cause they don’t feel they have to fake it with you.
     

102. Hey Hugo, sorry if I was condemning anyone. It’s just kind of offensive to read some guy saying that 38 is a good age to pick up much younger women.
     Also, somehow the thread turned from talking about guys who don’t know their place to how young women are blank canvases, how they are uninteresting, how they are bad lovers, how they’re immature, etc. It does not make any sense, not only because these are lies, but because instead of criticizing the deluded male who thinks he can get a hot young woman, you are saying that hot young women aren’t that great anyway. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

103. I’d agree completely with the sour grapes. And please understand, as a teacher and a youth leader, there are many young women about whom I care a great deal. But my goal is not to have them think I’m hot. My goal is to have them think I’m safe, a resource whom they can trust and upon whom they can rely. That is far more precious to me, and I wish that my brothers would make the decision to feel as I do about those young enough to be our daughters.

104. “Sexiest Men Alive” isn’t one person’s opinion, its an title awarded by people magazine.

     Just out of curiousity, how is it awarded by People magazine? Do they take a poll of their readers? Of their editorial board? Is there some writer at People magazine whose job it is, among other things, to evaluate the sexiness of men in the public eye? Just what set of people is evaluating the sexiness of men, here? Or is this something that basically gets decided behind the scenes at People magazine, and none of us knows exactly how?

     Not necessarily arguing the sexiness of this particular set of men, just wondering how they got the title.

     Also, do they have a parallel award for women?

105. That’s a really nice goal, I wish more professors were like that.

106. A young woman would probably not go for an older man for nothing. They stand to lose a lot from sustaining this relationship: their friends won’t hang out with the boyfriend and their friends will not approve of hooking up with an OM.

     here I think we have the crux of the matter: I think the determining factor is not age, but social niche.

     If a 39 year old professor whose social life consists of gallery openings and faculty parties dates a 20 year old whose interests include keg parties and Justin Timberlake, well…that’s pretty weird.

     But what about the 39 year old bassist in a rock band dating a 20 year old scenester? A 39 year old starving poet dating a Rimbaud-obsessed goth girl? A variety performer dating a chorus girl? Surely each of these men have a better chance of relating to their intended than they would with the 39 year old corporate lawyer they would meet on match.com.

     Aging hipsters frequently date young because they find themselves in a social circle that has very few women their own age.

107. guys who don’t know their place

     OK. Now that’s not offensive?

108. A 39 year-old starving poet won’t date a woman his own age because she’d see through him in two seconds. A 20 year-old might believe that sitting around all day long scribbling is a fundamental sign of creativity; a 39 year-old woman will recognize profound laziness for what it is.

109. Hugo, of course it’s your blog, so it’s your rules. If you want to be inconsistent, then by all means do so.

     I agree with Joe’s take re. social circles, and disagree completely about ‘hotness’ being mainly age-related. I’ve always thought that women in the 30-40 year range were the ‘hottest,’ even – or maybe especially – when I was younger. However, that said, ‘hotness’ and ‘desirability’ are two very different things, and for me there’s a lot more to desirability vis-a-vis forming a long-term partnership than skin-deep looks.

110. Hugo said: “A 39 year-old starving poet won’t date a woman his own age because she’d see through him in two seconds. A 20 year-old might believe that sitting around all day long scribbling is a fundamental sign of creativity; a 39 year-old woman will recognize profound laziness for what it is.”

     Whoa – that’s a really bold statement coming from a 39 year-old professional navel-gazer, er, women’s studies professor. And coming from someone who’s published, what, a column or two in some small publication(s) makes is all the more ironic. Sitting there on your high horse looking down your nose at people like Mark Twain, Alan Ginsberg, Maya Angelou… Ooops, that last person couldn’t possibly be what you meant when you said poets just ‘sit around all day scribbling and being proufoundly lazy,’ right? Right?

111. Wow. Hugo hates poetry!

112. Joe, word, word, a thousand times word.

     But I’ve found it goes both ways for hipsters too. Older women who are great musicians, artists, writers, and prominent in intellectual communities are also sought after by younger guys who admire them. But there are far less women than men in these positions.

     And in either case, the younger parties will suffer tons of harrassment from their peers, who will (rightfully) see this as an attempt to sleep your way to fringe benefits. If the relationship should prove successful, then your former peer becomes your elder, knowing things about the industry in advance, having juicy insider information about projects, and getting to meet people that you only admire from afar. This is what I meant when I said that they trade their peer support system for this springboard relationship.

     I am not saying that they do it on purpose. Very often professional admiration can turn to love, as Hugo talks about on “student crushes”, and this CERTAINLY goes for girls and guys. When I was 16 an 18 y/o friend of mine got the biggest crush on a female bassoonist who was close to forty at the time (She’s genius). I’ve seen gifted female composers who are over forty carry on with REALLY hot twenty-something men. And these are women that wear their gray hair and their wrinkles, no pretense of youth here.

113. Just out of curiousity, how is it awarded by People magazine?

     That’s a darn fine question, and a google search yielded no answers.

     Also, do they have a parallel award for women?

     Yes. It’s given by Esquire. This year the winner is Scarlett Johanssen.

114. Mr. Bad, my goodness, take a chill pill. I’m referring to the “starving” part, the suggestion that irresponsibility is hip. I love poetry, but I admire poets who (like Auden and Yeats and Milosz and Jeffers and yes, Angelou) were able to be self-supporting through their own contributions.

     Perhaps rasberry and I were thinking of different types. I’m thinking of the aging coffee-house hipster, scribbling in spiral-bound notebooks, slurping the java, collecting disability, dodging his creditors, spinning yarns to captivate the young and the gullible. University towns are filled with that type.

     We’re getting WAY off topic, but here’s where I am a thorough-going American Protestant: I love me that old time work ethic. Even in my poets. Read their biographies; most of them had it in spades.

115. Oh, sorry, I didn’t know what type of hipsters we were talking about.

116. young women are blank canvases

     Actually, what I said was “Young people can be cute, but I can’t help (from my jaded, ageist perspective) seeing them as blank canvases.” Emphasis added because you seem rather determined to take a gender-neutral comment and mash it up into a) a slur on young women only and b) on a par with saying that everyone under 30 is lousy in bed. (That was Joe’s riff, not mine, thanks.)

     As long as I’m picking on Joe, I’ll note that his example is rather contrived. Is it really true that there are so very few middle-aged starving female poets? That if a male variety performer seeks companionship, there are no women doing what he does, and he has to date chorus girls? (Whose looks are beside the point, wink wink.)All of Joe’s examples seem to suggest a world where the accomplished, experienced people are middle-aged men, and the wide-eyed newbies are younger women.

     Which is more than a little bizarre when you consider that it’s not the arts where there are shortages of women. If you have a 39-year-old who can’t find any women in his profession, he’s probably an IT professional, a Wall Street trader or a trial lawyer.

117. on a par with saying that everyone under 30 is lousy in bed. (That was Joe’s riff, not mine, thanks.)

     No, that was R. Giskard. I said that tens were lousy in bed.

     That if a male variety performer seeks companionship, there are no women doing what he does, and he has to date chorus girls?

     Go to a magician’s or ventriloquist’s convention and tell me how many women you see there. The standard review show has one novelty act and a bunch of dancers, and may be in the middle of the ocean. I think also you are being a tad denigrating to chorus girls (who are accomplished dancers). The variety performer and the chorus girl are in fact in the same profession.

     You’ve got a point about the middle aged women poets, but my point was not just that these three examples are suffering from a shortage of appropriately aged women.

     Because they are not part of bourgois society, they suffer from a lack of people in general who can relate to them, or who would want to be part of their crazy mixed up life. What sucessful middle aged woman wants to take up with the drummer for Deathrealm?

     Plus i’m not saying that an aging hipster MUST date young. What I’m saying is that if two people can relate to each other by being in the same social niche, and have shared experiences it is far less relevant how old they are. A chorus girl and a knife thrower have far more in common than either would have with a patent lawyer.

     The IT professional,Wall Street trader, and the trial lawyer are financially solvent and have clearly defined roles in normal society. They can date pretty much anyone (but I’d like to believe that the Rimbaud obsessed goth girl would tell them to go to hell).

118. All of Joe’s examples seem to suggest a world where the accomplished, experienced people are middle-aged men, and the wide-eyed newbies are younger women.

     And is that never the case in real life?

119. Sorry mythago.
     I guess I felt so patronized by your comment that I read it as a personal blow.

     And as for arts and career paths that eschew to the female or the male side, I would say it depends on the arts. There are certain arts that have a yawning need for females, and some arts that are the opposite. A male dancer will have his pick, so will a female drummer. I suppose it’s the same for other professions? Female tecchies, male psychologists?

     Yeah, Joe was picking provoking examples. But when he said “scenester”, he could have meant male. Happens often too. What about exploring gay relationships with big age differentials? Maybe there we could see more pure dynamics of power without all the evolutionary biology/shelf-life hoolabaloo.

120. I was wondering when this was going to come up. It seems there are a lot of may/december romances in the gay community. Are these guys suffering from the same ego problems and nueroses as us SWMs?

121. on a par with saying that everyone under 30 is lousy in bed. (That was Joe’s riff, not mine, thanks.)

     No, that was R. Giskard. I said that tens were lousy in bed.

     Ok. Wait a minute.. that is not what I said.

     I was not making a blanket statement that women under 30 are “lousy in bed”. I was merely sharing my personal observations taken from the women I’ve had relationships with, and quite a few that I didn’t, but have met over the years. . I’m a little older than most of the women here. I’ve been with a variety of women of differing ages over my life time. YMMV.

     I stand by it though. I found younger women to be more into game playing and not as comfortable with their sexuality. Of course, maybe no women outside of the ones I had relationships with do this. I dunno. I don’t know why this is such a shocker. I would imagine that women seeking older men, have observed this in young men as well. It is however, no sin to be young.

     raspberryjamba >>Also, somehow the thread turned from talking about guys who don’t know their place to how young women are blank canvases

     Sorry, I guess I’m not into “being in my place”. How insulting. Glad I didn’t say it. I’d be banned for making a sexist generalization “with tremendous capacity to offend.”

     As for the blank canvas statement: Sorry, compared to older more experienced women, you are. Again, I make this as someone that’s been around a little longer than you. At 21, you are legally an adult, able to drink, etc. But from my perspective, you are still a kid with many many life experiences ahead of you (IMO the primary reason for me that older men are inappropriate for you). A “blank canvas” is not an insult. It’s a wonderful opportunity and a blessing.

     But heck. That’s ok. At 21, I thought I knew everything about everything too. Took me a while longer to realize that I didn’t. And when you get a little older, you will too.

     raspberryjamba >> It does not make any sense, not only because these are lies, but because instead of criticizing the deluded male who thinks he can get a hot young woman, you are saying that hot young women aren’t that great anyway. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

     Hugo>> I’d agree completely with the sour grapes.

     Ok.. so if I am attracted to young women, I’m a deluded male. If I am not attracted to younger women, its sour grapes. Geez.. make up your mind.

122. It seems there are a lot of may/december romances in the gay community.

     For some reason, I personally only ran into one of these in the lesbian community. I don’t know whether this says something about lesbians, relative to straight and gay male couples, or whether it just says I needed to get out more .

123. mythago said: “All of Joe’s examples seem to suggest a world where the accomplished, experienced people are middle-aged men, and the wide-eyed newbies are younger women.”

     As opposed to Hugo’s blogs and comments which all seem to suggest a world where the talented, responsible, accomplished, experienced people are women (of any age), and the immature, irresponsible, lecherous and abusive are white men of any age, especially Christians.

     Frankly, I appreciate the diversity of opinion that Joe provides.

124. Don’t any of these 40something men remember how THEY viewed the average 40something woman when they were college-age? If they do, and it doesn’t occur to them that the phenomenon might also hold true in reverse, then I think that “male entitlement syndrome” is not an inaccurate description of the situation.

     Personally, while I’m certainly appreciative of hardbodied young men as eye candy, it would be unlikely in the extreme for me to actually approach one sexually. A man who’s old enough to have unlearned some of the sexist bullshit with which most 20somethings are still laden is MUCH more likely to be a satisfactory sexual partner!

     (Which is also why Mr. Bad, no matter his age, would get an automatic turndown from most of the women I know. “Male supremacist = terrible lover” is an equation a lot of women learn fairly quickly.)

125. I like your interpretation of why older men want to date younger people. It makes sense, as does the biological approach (we want the fittest mates, so an older male of any species would start trying harder if he could not get a young and healthy partner). Still, you need to see from a younger persons point of view too. I’m 19 and a year ago I was getting hit on by a guy who was thirty in a lab-group. It made me uncomfortable because he was aggressive but he wasn’t old enough to be equated with my father. If he’d been ten years older I would have freaked! The thought that a man, who would have seen me in a paternalistic light just two or so years earlier, would consider me a sexual prospect is uncomfortable to say the least. Every situation is different but most of the women I know have a keen sense of the incestual taboo related to dating a much older man.

126. Lots of guys don’t notice that they are getting older and seem to think that nature confers a natural form of distinction to the aging male. In reality this simply isn’t the case. If you let yourself go, eat bad food, drink alot, then its for sure you will arrive at the doorstep of middle age with a nice spare tire and less energy. Back in previous generations men might have been able to skate by with this because they were the primary breadwinners in the marriage ,but women have careers and options. From what I can see those options involve women selecting men who are in shape over those who aren’t.

     Put another way – my gym is chock full of 40+ year old guys trying to get it back together because they are realizing that they are being passed over for more youthful looking men. Please don’t shoot the messenger here. The clear majority of our personal training clients are
     men over the age of 40 and the most commonly stated goal is to “eliminate the gut”. The more honest among them will say that their appearance prevents them from being as confident.

     Most men want a hottie for a wife or a girlfriend and thats cool – though its only fair that they should be brining a similar level of hotness.

127. By whom are these forty-something men being passed over? By women of their own age — or 20-somethings? If it’s the former, then your anecdotal evidence and mine don’t correlate. (And I’m a gym rat if there ever was one.) If it’s the latter, any man in his forties who works out to attract the college-age hotties needs to get out of my way and out of my gym.

128. I stumbled across this blog by accident and I guess I need to vent on this subject. I confess I am attracted to younger women, but not because I need to find out whether I still “have it.” In my case, I never had it. I’m still trying to acquire it. I’m 50, and I’ve never had a girlfriend. Why not? Well, I don’t know. And it isn’t by choice, at least not consciously.

     I’m not incredibly well off financially for my age, but I’m reasonably attractive, and I’ve managed to convince myself of that for the past 15 years. I suppose I’m too shy for my own good, or don’t have that magic formula I call “finesse” that other men have for obtaining success with women. A few years ago (10? 15?) I tried a number of different options to meet and date women, including therapy (expensive), personal ads, dating services, and singles social functions such as dances. The dances were the most disappointing, as they seemed to be populated by senior citizens. The occasional younger woman was snatched up by someone more desirable than I.

     In fact, that has planted the biggest seed of resentment in me: that only older women have ever shown an interest in me. When I was 20, I used to sit in at piano bars in restaurants and play the type of music that I liked at that time, which was jazz oldies. I guess this attracted the senior citizen types that thought I was cute because I was “too young to know that song.” Anyway, it offended me that I was unable to attract the hot (or even average) 20-year-old females who were my contemporaries.

     Years passed, and nothing much changed. The therapy improved my confidence and outlook on life a little, but not enough to last beyond the final session, and when all was said and done, still no girlfriend. I managed to go out with probably six or seven different women on first dates over the past 20 years, but nothing beyond two dates with any single one. I confess that at age 37 I lost my virginity to a woman almost ten years my senior because she was attracted to me, we were already friends, and she asked me to sleep with her. I consented because I thought I might never get a chance at sex otherwise. The result did not work out as a relationship, and it ruined our friendship as well.

     I suppose that, when I was younger, I was too picky when it came to looking for a mate, but at least I had the advantage of youth and could expect to find a young woman by default.

     My preferences have not aged with the rest of me. Since I’ve never had anyone, I’m still looking for the young girlfriend I’ve never had. I feel cheated. I’m not saying I’m insisting on dating someone like the 19-year-old barista who flirted with Sean, but it would be great if I could find someone around 30-35. But even that is problematic at my age. You talk about the 19-y.o. woman who goes “Ew!” at the thought of hooking up with a 50-y.o. man. I know how she feels. I go “Ew!” at the thought of hooking up with a 50-y.o. woman. I’m just plain not attracted to women my age.

     My sister once suggested I fix the problem by having a fling with a younger woman to “get it out of my system.” Huh? If I could do that, I don’t think I’d have a problem in the first place. And furthermore, if I had the ability to do that, I would be doing that; it would be my lifestyle choice.

     I guess I’m trying to say that I’m not ready to close the door yet, simply because I’ve never had the opportunity to find out where that door leads. For me, it has always been labelled “No Admittance.” And I would hate to think that some day soon, the 35 to 40-y.o.s will be off-limits as well. Time is moving too quickly at my age.

129. Pacific, forgive me, but I’m not sympathetic. No one is entitled to a “hot” anything or anyone, and the fact that we consider ourselves to have been deprived of what we longed for doesn’t give us carte blanche to use other people.

     Using younger women to fulfill a fantasy or assuage your ego falls way short of the mark; the fact that you never used them in real life doesn’t mean you didn’t in your vivid imaginings.

     A persistent attraction to folks substantially younger than ourselves is, as I will maintain ’till the cows come home, deeply unhealthy, usually exploitative, and possibly bordering on the pathological.

130. Well, Hugo, I tend to think that people who are as determined as you are to be self-righteous and judgmental of others, as well as so deeply smug in their sense of moral superiority, are deeply unhealthy and pathological. The lesson to take from all this: not everyone is obligated to be Just Like You, and that fact doesn’t make them Bad. Consider that while you’re waiting for the cows.

131. PS: I also found Pacific’s post to be quite heartwrenching, and it must have been difficult for him to write. He’s not talking about “using” anyone, he’s talking about finding someone to love. He admits his sexual development has been arrested by his lack of experience, but he doesn’t know how to overcome it. Frankly, your curt dismissal of him proves what a raging asshole you are.

132. Martin, if being curtly dismissive of those whose erotic attraction leads them only to younger women and excludes their peers makes me an asshole in your eyes, then I wear that sobriquet with pride.

133. This is because you lack empathy. Pacific went into great detail about how he has a problem, and you dismissed it with a flick of your hand. Whether a person has a psychological impairment or arrested development, or is simply poorly socialized and lonely and lacks the tools to create peer-to-peer relationships, if they don’t measure up to your rarified standards of Perfection (read: how closely they model Hugo at all times), they get no understanding from you. Really, dude, it troubles me that you’re someone who’s out there teaching and giving lectures on these subjects. Then again, I suppose they’re short sessions. “Okay everyone! Think and act just like me and you’ll be okay! Any questions? No? Right…lunch time!”

134. Yes, that’s exactly how I teach, old boy.

135. Martin: Thank you for your input, as well as the eloquent way you’ve expressed it. You are correct in your assumption that my post was difficult to write. You are also correct in concluding that my situation is far from the disturbed mental state Hugo would suggest, one which would cause me to seek out any opportunity to use and exploit a much younger woman.

     For the record, I would like to set a few things straight.

     (1) My first post was mainly to vent and, with a bit of my history, to explain why I am attracted moreso to younger women and less-so to my peer group.

     (2) While I’m unhappy with my life situation, I’m happy to report that my age preference range is beginning to move upwards. Perhaps I didn’t make it clear that I am not shooting for a relationship with a 19-year-old Starbucks barista. Yes, some of them are hot-looking eye-candy, but hooking up with one is not my idea of making up for lost time, because the idea is just plain silly. I am, however, looking at the 30-40 range, with 35 being the median. Developmentally, I consider myself to be at that age in terms of mental attitude and life experience. There are a lot of desirable 35-y.o. women out there. Don’t mean to brag, either, but I’ve been told I look more like 35 than 50, and I don’t even work that hard at it! My problem is that I lack the skilled experience at playing the game of seduction, that most other men aged 35-50 have (or had), and probably take for granted.

     (3) I never said I was entitled to anything. I know that I am not entitled to a younger woman—or any woman, for that matter. Hell, I’m not entitled to a $100,000-a-year income, either. What I am entitled to, is the pursuit of that income. Or the pursuit of a younger woman. I can choose to want something and be willing to work for it.

     (4) I fail to understand how an erotic attraction of a 50-.y.o. man to a 35-y.o. woman is indicative of a pathological mental state. At 35, a woman is probably as emotionally mature as she is going to get (and please, I mean no offense to those who have the experience of additional years and consider themselves wiser for it). And furthermore, I fail to see how 15 years is such a huge gap at my age. I have a 35-y.o. platonic girlfriend whom I’ve known for 14 years now, and we get along great because we have much in common. As an aside, she did manage to break my heart by rejecting me romantically during the first few months we knew each other, but I got over it.

     (5) Hugo, I can survive without your sympathy, so no need to ask for my forgiveness. That doesn’t mean I can’t be allowed to feel frustrated. I still have a difficult road ahead, with many unanswered questions. There is obviously a huge difference between your life situation and mine; you’ve probably experienced more inside your 40 years than I ever will, which makes it painfully obvious how different the two of us are. I can’t help but agree with Martin that you are being a bit dismissive; perhaps even enough that it qualifies you as the asshole Martin says you are—but then again I’ll admit I’ve met that qualification myself more than once.

     At the risk of indicating that I have way too much time on my hands, I’ll add a couple more points. I don’t believe in a “one size fits all” evaluation regarding age gaps (or preferences) with an OM/YW relationship. And also, like Martin, I don’t believe you to be someone I would want to model, regardless of my relationship goals.

     Rant over.

136. Pacific, I would have been so much more sympathetic to your original point had you not written this:

     My preferences have not aged with the rest of me. Since I’ve never had anyone, I’m still looking for the young girlfriend I’ve never had. I feel cheated.

     That reeked of male entitlement, and that’s why I came down so hard.

137. I disagree that it reeked of male entitlement. To me it was the expression of an unhappy, lonesome man who feels he missed out on an important part of his development which, to add insult to injury over the last several decades of his life, he could not help but see that other men (who were not noticably any “better” a human being than he is) were enjoying with comparative ease. In other words, “I wish I had a pretty girl, and still do.” I cannot see that as being anything other than a normal masculine desire, and while, at 50, Pacific doesn’t actually expect to get the babe he never had, it’s still natural for him to wish he could have.

     Even if I were to agree (which I emphatically don’t) with your general premise that age disparities in romantic/sexual/dating relationships are de facto morally wrong, I would still object to your judgmental tone towards men who confess to liking younger women, and your reflexive tendency to attribute nothing but the most lecherous and depraved motives to them. (In some men those motives exist, but certainly not all.) Sometimes my disapproval makes me spout nasty names, which is the asshole in me coming out. But I hope you see it’s possible to have two different views on this subject, without one side being all Right and the other all Wrong.