Last week, I wrote a post about flirtation.
Kate commented at length. She made an excellent point, and asked a good question along with it. The point:
This an area where male privilege works overtime. You can decide ‘not’ to flirt and that’s a conscious decision. When women decide ‘not’ to flirt, it often makes NO difference in some men’s minds – we talk to them, we’re flirting, whatever we say…
That certainly rings true enough. It’s a rare woman who hasn’t had her words and actions misinterpreted; few women grow up in this culture without having at least one experience of friendlness mistaken for frank sexual interest.
And for a man to stop flirting, particularly a man who made a habit out of flirting for years and years, may seem virtuous; for a woman, it might well be perceived as chilliness.
The question Kate asks:
I was wondering, if by giving up ‘flirting’ you were more able, in a way, to have your eyes opened to ‘other’ sorts of connection with people of all genders; or if you felt that you had to ‘close off’ that capacity to some extent in case it became sexual?
Well, once I stopped flirting, I found that my genuine friendships with both men and women improved exponentially. I became less inclined to see men as rivals once I stopped seeking validation from women. The relationships with women, of course, became far more transparent, honest, and ulitmately more intimate without that deliberate attention to a sexual undercurrent.
Potential sexual attraction can happen in all sorts of relationships. Most people who’ve lived a while on this planet have found themselves taken by surprise by the sudden emergence of either mutual or unrequited desire for someone who most decidedly isn’t their “type.” Living a life of accountability, which is what I’m trying to do here, requires a healthy respect for the power of sexuality and the habit desire has of appearing almost without warning. So I set some pretty good boundaries in my friendships.
In her comment, Kate quotes Forster’s maxim from “Howard’s End” (one of my favorite novels ever written, and one from which I quote habitually): “Only Connect.” Connecting with others is our most important task and for many, our greatest joy. But connecting with others is more about philia and agape then it is about eros. Indeed, too often sex is the very thing that makes true connection impossible, not because sex is inherently wicked but because sexual desire (or the desire for sexual validation) makes so many of us selfish and self-absorbed.
One classic defense of flirtation is that it makes other people feel good about themselves. I’m all for making other people feel good. But I’m convinced that we can achieve this without using sexuality as the primary vehicle for accomplishing that.
I am from the U.S., but I have been living in Mexico for the last 10 months. In the U.S., I will smile at strangers, answer questions from random people in a friendly manner, start conversations with strangers while waiting in line, on buses, on the metro, etc in order to be sociable. In Mexico, I will do none of this with random men.
There are two reason for this. The first is that HATE being oogled, whistled at, grunted at, etc when I walk past. It happens way too often and I usually walk around in a defensive attitude. That is, I walk around with a scowl on my face, ready to return the gesture with a gesture of my own or a comment to make it clear that the behavior is unwanted. Someone commented in the other post (sorry, don’t remember who) that women want him to know just how unattractive he is. That is exactly how I feel here. YES, I want the men who whistle, stare and grunt to know exactly how disgusting they are to me mostly because of their attitude towards women which is evident in how they treat women walking past.
The second reason is that in 10 months here, I have not met a man who wanted to talk to me in order to cultivate a plutonic friendship. Every man that I have spoken to casually and in a friendly manner has asked me out. Perhaps my reaction to this is a culmination of all of the other forms of sexism that I encounter every day, but to me not being able to have a conversation without being hit on is disrespectful. Being hit on is not a compliment; it reduces the interaction to “above all, I want to have sex with you.” A few have even feigned friendship until they realized that I am not going to break up with my current boyfriend for them. Then they disappeared. This also disgusts me because it is dishonest and disrespectful to me and my boyfriend. A few have refused to take the first, second and third “no” for an answer. As a result, I am very cold to random men who try to talk to me. (And some of them don’t pick up on that either.)
I realize that some women are cold without reason, but many more have a reason. It is not fair to be cold to all men, but it is much easier and less emotionally exhausting than being friendly and consistenly getting these reactions.
I like these posts. I agree with that student in your other thread that says you are not at all flirtatious; it does make your class easier. (I am a former and current student, MM is not my initials!))
I think you might want to reconsider how you dress, however. I think some people perceive your clothing choices to be almost too sexy. Today’s fitted pink shirt (J Crew?) and tight stretchy black pants was a hot outfit, though some might say a bit too gay. Dressing nice is good in a teacher, I am frustrated when I see some of my professors show up like total slobs. But by the same token, some of your outfits seem too enticing.
I realize this is “problematic” (one of your favorite words!) Your lecture today about women’s dress was spot on. At the same time I know that some of us, myself included, experience your body as a distraction. (It may also be your pacing about all the time too). So your hotness (you are number one at ratemyprofessors.com) isn’t something you can help, but if you area as committed as you say you are to not flirting you might consider how your clothes can flirt too.
you might consider how your clothes can flirt too.
With all respect, MM, I think this is analogous to what Kate talked about in the section I quoted above; just as some women are accused of flirting even when they aren’t, I think you may be misreading my intent entirely. I trust my wife’s judgment that my clothes are sufficiently professional.
Sometimes I wonder if it is possible for men to have relationships with women that are 100% purely non- sexualizing. They may not ever make it apparent that they have sexual feelings or curiosities towards their women friends but I would be very reluctant to say that they dont think about what it would be like to have a sexual relationship with their woman friend. This also does not cancel out their genuine friendly feelings for that woman. Being out right rude and nasty is absolutly unacceptable under any circumstances. I do think though that a little harmless flirting only makes people feel desirable which, in moderation, is healthy.
This is a real problem for me as a woman. I like to be friendly with shopstaff for example, because I know what it’s like to work behind a counter and be treated like a food-providing robot. But I find that I often have to change where I eat lunch every few weeks because the male staff take my regular custom as a desire to be near them, and start dropping hints and winks and giving me free extras. They don’t ask me directly so I’m not given the opportunity to say I’m unavailable. But I get uncomfortable, and so I have to stop going there. I wish there were some technique you could use to be friendly, and talk to people like they’re human, without it coming across as sexual. Any ideas?
The assertions from your students that you’re less-than-averagely flirtatious are pretty strange to me, Hugo. I’ve been in school forever and have very rarely had any professors who seemed at all flirtatious. I can’t even think of any. I can’t help wondering if your school is either filled with extra-flirtatious professors or if your students are so in thrall to you (as sometimes seems to be the case) that they just naturally jump to agree with you about your own behavior. (I don’t mean any offense – and certainly no encouragement – if that’s the case. I’ve had crushes on professors myself.)
Well, it’s possible that the students posting here are “in thrall”. We’ve got a few notorious lecherous profs on the faculty, but that’s true of many places; how many of my colleagues are “flirtatious” isn’t at all clear to me. I so rarely see my colleagues interact with students after all…
I’m not trying to win praise, mind you, for my conduct. I’m just blogging about my own strong desire to make the classroom, my office, my youth group meeting room, the gym, and everywhere else I go a very, very safe place.
I teach part time at a medium sized midwestern public university and I can honestly say that I’ve seen pretty flirtatious profs in my department. It isn’t so much an issue now that I’m a colleague, but when I was a grad student there, it was rampant with a few of them. I had the same issues with a couple of profs in my undergraduate years (at a different school) as well. This is not to say that all, or even most, of the profs that I’ve interacted with are the slightest bit flirty with students, but they do exist.
And to the topic of flirting, in itself. I try not to ‘flirt’ with strangers or men I’ve just met, but sometimes I do get that plain old friendliness is interpreted as flirting and interest by men who don’t know me well. With male friends (who know me, know my husband, and I know their wives and SOs), the flirting is all completely innocent and tends to be of the ‘joshing around’ sort. In those cases, I think a little mild flirting can be a good, or at least neutral, element in a relationship.
And while after almost 10 years of marriage, I don’t really find men not than my husband attractive (other than in the academic, ‘he’s pretty to look at’ or ‘has a nice personality’ sense), it is nice to get that little ego boost that comes from others finding me attractive on occaision. I don’t necessarily see that as a bad thing, as long as it doesn’t become a constant need for validation that must be fed.
It’s a rare woman who hasn’t had her words and actions misinterpreted; few women grow up in this culture without having at least one experience of friendlness mistaken for frank sexual interest.
… So how do you tell the difference between being oblivious to men’s interest and the lack of any interest from men?
Because I’m not feeling particularly glad to find myself in the minority you’re describing.
I’m sorry about that carlavii; I’m working as a man off the extraordinary ubiquity of stories I hear from my students, my teens and other women. Having friendliness misinterpreted seems frightfully common, but it evidently isn’t universal and I see no reason to suggest that there’s something lacking in those women who haven’t had to endure this.
I’m not saying you implied any such thing: you were covering all your bases and you had no way of knowing that this post would somehow sting me when all the others are, for me, just an interesting window onto an exotic world that seems jam-packed full of sex.
My libido faded away some years ago and I was actually grateful to see it go (and no, I’m not that old). For some reason, the timing and wording of this post reminded me of the bad old days and prompted me to double check with my equally asexual husband that he’s happy with things the way they are. And I felt the need to say something here, too, without too much forethought and I’m sorry if I sounded accusing.
Thanks for replying honestly and at length, Hugo. The area of ‘what is flirting’? (just like ‘what is dressing provocatively?’) is really interesting to me, because I think sexual indicators like these vary from culture to culture (in different countries and within different groups of people) and kind of illustrate why it is so hard to describe what desire actually IS. I won’t go on about it here as it would end up being too long a comment – I’m going to post on it instead. But I wanted to say that it was telling that you needed to use the Greek to describe types of love (philia and agape) that in the English language, don’t have their own words!
Hi Hugo. I posted a previous reply that basically said flirtation (as long as it’s welcome and done with the intent to compliment others, not oneself) can be healthy and nice. I do so wish more people flirted in that manner. Having said that, I have noticed I myself do not attempt to flirt as described, and that’s sad. In fact, I’ve noticed I go so far as to avoid all eye contact with men. Today at a cafe, I walked in and a man smiled warmly at me. Caught off guard, I looked away without responding. I wanted to acknowledge his friendliness and warmth, for I prize both, but I could not get myself to look in his direction the entire time I was there. I don’t wish to be rude or cold.
This saddens me. I make eye contact with (usually older) women, younger women, and children all the time! (Not sure why, but women my age don’t always respond favorably–who knows why.) And I generally smile and/or make small talk, if appropriate. The whole point is to be friendly and warm, to acknowledge the common humanity (as in “only connect”).
But men? No. I avoid the possibility of having anything I say/do as being perceived as flirtation with serious intention by completely ignoring their existence. Not all unfamiliar men I’ve encountered interpret a smile or small talk as a come on or flirtation with serious intention, but I’d say 95% or so have. You would be surprised at how direct these guys are, and age/ethnicity/socio-economic status have nothing to do with it. I’ve even had one stranger go so far as to ask me to move in with him! Weird, man. Weird. When I found out he was from a small town as I am, I figured it would be all right to engage in that friendly, benign banter that was so common and harmless in small towns. I was wrong.
I should note I’m not drop dead gorgeous or anything; looks and attire have little to do with it. I’m reasonably attractive in a girl-next-door kind of way. I dress pretty conservatively.
It would be nice if I could feel free to smile and make chit chat with men as I do with older women, younger women, and children. The other day, a little girl about age 4 sat next to me at a cafe, turned to me, and said with a bright smile, “Hi!” I have to tell you it really made my day! I smiled back and said hi.
I wish both men and women could be like that. But perhaps I’m naive. Do men even want to be acknowledged with a smile, a “hello,” and/or small talk if there’s no possibility of a hookup?
True Sydney, but simarly, my boyfriend, who loves kids, finds it very painful that he can’t talk and make jokes with and smile at four-year-old girls, because that will be misinterpreted (understandably, and reasonably, but painfully nonetheless) by their parents
True Sydney, but similarly, my boyfriend, who loves kids, finds it very painful that he can’t talk and make jokes with and smile at four-year-old girls, because that will be misinterpreted (understandably, and reasonably, but painfully nonetheless) by their parents