I don’t watch a lot of television, but last night made a happy exception: the last few innings of the championship match of the world cup of softball and back-to-back episodes of “Hell’s Kitchen.” I’m still unhappy about the decision of the Olympic Committee to take softball out of the Games starting in 2012. (Sure, the USA’s women are absolutely dominant. But Manchester United is pretty darned dominant in the Premiership too, and that doesn’t mean that the likes of Sunderland don’t get excited about playing them. Softball ranks just behind American college football and soccer as my favorite team sport to watch, so I’m biased.)
Even when I ate meat, I was never what you’d consider to be a “foodie.” As I’ve written before, in my pre-vegan bachelor days, I could consist for days, even weeks, on food-related products purchased at the local 7-11. Being vegan does force me to be more thoughtful about what I’m eating, but it’s a thoughtfulness born more of necessity rather than pleasure. That doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy my food, I do. But I’ve never had much interest in contemplating exciting new meals. Cooking shows — at least the sort where you are shown how to make something — are stunningly dull.
I do like fashion, and care much more about clothing than food. Hence, I do enjoy “Project Runway.” But I can’t explain why I’m so fond of “Top Chef” and the positively sadistic “Hell’s Kitchen”. Perhaps I just like watching people who are passionate about what they do struggling to perform under intense pressure. I know I’m at my best under pressure, and perhaps it’s empathy born of experience in other areas of life that makes the competitors on these shows so interesting to me. Lord knows, it’s not the food that they’re actually making.
And this brings me back to veganism. In the last four or five months that I have been much more strictly and actively vegan, I’ve been acutely conscious of my own dangerous tendency towards self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is the pit into which many adult converts tend to fall, and those of us who have “prodigal son” narratives (in my case involving a decade and a half worth of drugs, alcohol, multiple divorces and a lot of very unhealthy sexual acting-out) are all the more likely to become tiresomely prudish as we move to amend our way of life. Of course, in our zeal to promote the new “clean livin’” we’ve just discovered, we end up alienating everyone around us. I know I’ve slipped into the role of the prig many times, and as I grow in Christ, I’m all the more determined to not let that censoriousness characterize my thinking or my words about other people’s behavior.
At the same time, when it comes to veganism and animal rights, it’s hard. As someone who does believe that all sentient beings — not just humans — do have inalienable rights to life and dignity, it’s often difficult to find a way to live in loving community with those who find that view preposterous and silly. Watching “Hell’s Kitchen” last night, I saw one group of chefs preparing “bacon-wrapped rabbit” as a special dish. Looking at the strips of bacon wrapped around the little chunks of rabbit, I thought about the animals from which those morsels came. I thought about the hogs I’ve been around and the rabbits I’ve played with. (Lest you think I’m a purely urban vegan, I’ve spent a lot of time in my life on ranches and farms. I grew up around 4-H and FFA and have been to countless livestock shows and auctions. I’m not an urban sentimentalist totally ignorant of the realities of farm life.) I thought about the capacity of pigs to nurture and to protect, and the clear and obvious ability of rabbits to experience fear and pain and pleasure. And in order to continue watching the show, I had to shut down that part of me that wanted to scream “How dare you!” at the aspiring chefs.
I have vegan acquaintances who won’t go to family holidays where meat is served. I know some vegans who have severed all of their close ties with those who continue to eat animal products. They find it too painful to sit at family meals while those whom they love consume the flesh of creatures equally deserving of protection and care. I’m far too committed to my friends and family, far too interested in far too many different types of people to ever cut myself off from someone over their dietary choices.
With my family, we’ve reached a clear understanding. When we come home for family holidays (such as at Easter this year), we’ll bring our own food. No one will beg us to try “just one little bite” of ham or omelette. In turn, we won’t begin to hector our loved ones with the usual lines: “Do you have any idea how that was made? Would you be willing to eat it if you saw how that animal was slaughtered?” My wife and I not only sit next to meat-eaters, we even help in preparing dishes filled with animal product (as at the Fourth of July, where I spent over an hour cranking out ice cream I would never taste). We’ve made a conscious decision to strike a balance between our desire for loving, harmonious relationship with our families and our own commitment to no longer consume animals in any form.
It’s not as easy as it sounds. Sometimes, the meat eaters around me feel as if they’re being silently rebuked. As they slice their steaks and I spoon in my quinoa and broccoli, they look uncomfortable. I make a conscious effort not to stare at their food, I don’t make disgusted expressions, I don’t use passive-aggressive tactics to communicate disapproval. Nevertheless, I see some folks getting antsy. Often, they’ll ask if I’m “okay” with what they’re eating; I’m always careful to be reassuring.
At the same time, my veganism is not a value-neutral lifestyle choice. Being a feminist and being anti-racist isn’t morally equivalent with being a misogynist bigot. Those of us who fight for justice for women and ethnic minorities want to change hearts and minds and behaviors; we want men to stop abusing women, we want full inclusion for people of color in every aspect of public life. Most of us draw a distinction between someone who says “having toast with peanut butter in the morning is better than having cornflakes, and you can’t judge me for that view” and someone who says “raping women is something I prefer to not raping them, and you can’t judge me.” The latter involves tremendous harm to living beings whose lives have innate value, and so we feel comfortable and right in judging it. So if I believe that pigs and rabbits and cows have a similar innate value to that of a human being, am I not contradicting myself if I reassure my meat-eating friends that they’re “okay with me” when I would never offer that same reassurance to a rapist or a racist?
Yes, I do want a world where we’ve minimized the suffering of sentient creatures. I do want a world where we are all surviving and thriving on a plant-based diet, and I am eager to play a role in helping to create the economic systems and the policies that can make veganism as affordable and pleasurable and easy as carniverousness. The cost to the earth (in terms of water and protein, for example) to “factory farm” cows, pigs, sheep, and poultry is colossal and likely unsustainable. The cost in physical suffering is unspeakable, and I do wish those who eat meat would, at the least, imagine the face of the creature whose thighs or hindquarters they are eating. There can be no virtue in deliberate, willfull denial.
At the same time, I’m aware we live in a world trapped in the famous tension between the Already and the Not Yet. I am Already aware, at least I trust I am, of what it is God is calling me to be. I am Already convinced that I am called, and indeed, we all are called, to eat and drink and drive and make love and buy morally. I am Already convinced that to follow Christ is to live a life of courage and radical compassion; I am Already convinced that to live as an authentic feminist is to see that the exploitation of other living creatures for my pleasure is fundamentally unethical. I am Not Yet at the place where I can live this life perfectly, without the occasional small compromises that expose me and others to the charge of hypocrisy. I am Not Yet at the place where I can make the case for Christian feminist veganism without coming across, at least to many, as a charlatan or a fraud or a deluded prude swept up in religious enthusiasm.
So I’ll keep on keepin’ on; that means being cheerful about an undressed salad at an elegant restaurant while those around me nosh on chateaubriand. That means being unapologetic about animal rights while being warm, engaging, and non-judgmental with those who are unwilling to consider my position to be practical or desirable.
And it means I’m gonna work on another book proposal one of these days. Working title: “The Winsome Vegan: How to Live Cruelty-Free and Love those Who Don’t”.
This is a tough one. I did ask you if you would be offended if I ate meat when we went to lunch, and you reassured me that you didn’t want to be one of those people who people worried about offending all the time. So, with that, I ordered a chicken dish. I didn’t feel all that bad about it and I’m not sure if you were fully vegan then. But after reading your blog for some time, I’m not sure I’ll eat meat when we go out to lunch to chat again (maybe we all could do coffee?). I don’t mind, of course.
When I go to my auntie’s house, I don’t cuss (not that I do all the time, but I won’t tell my brother to shut up even when I don’t mean it) out of respect for her. Knowing that it really does bug you makes me feel self-conscious about eating meat, which I think is one of your goals as a vegan anyway (to spread your message), so I’ll happily ask if you have any vegetarian recommendations.
pigs and rabbits and cows have a similar innate value to that of a human being
Here’s the thing: Almost all sane people would agree with your example of rape being better than non-rape. But very few sane people would agree that farm animals have a “similar innate value to that of a human being.” So just for that reason alone, it would be very imprudent to take a self-righteous attitude about how everyone else in the world is the equivalent of a murderer.
Look, I absolutely agree that animals should be treated more humanely, but think for a moment about why the phrase “red in tooth and claw” arose. Many animals — including humans — evolved to eat other animals. (You don’t have to agree with this yourself; but do understand that this is one reason why a lot of people will never agree with you).
Why have you decided to be a vegan? Why not a lacto-ovo-vegetarian?
Merm, when I’m hanging out with people like you and Jeremy, I’m really, really glad to have you eat what you want. But next time, I’ll encourage you guys to be veggies if you’d rather.
Magdala, it has to to with the horrific conditions for most cows and chickens in industrial egg and dairy production.
Hugo, the “vegetarian judgement” thing is a hard one for me to work out too. When I eat meat around my vegetarian family, I feel bad, and when I abstain from eating meat around people who do, I feel judgement towards the meat-eaters. (It’s amazing, but human I suppose, to be capable of both experiences within a span of months.)
I think reading your blog is part of what’s inspired me to attempt to be more vegetarian lately. I still can’t claim to be fully vegetarian, and I pretty much gave up on being vegan (unfortunately), but I’ve almost completely successfully given up eating mammals, at least.
Just to clarify, did you just compare eating a chicken to raping a person?
It’s funny you post this just before I head off to see my family for the first time since they really acknowledged that I don’t do meat. (And I’m curious how my mom will handle it cooking-wise — I’m guessing we’ll have mac and cheese, spaghetti, or burgers, since those are the easiest things in her reportoire to unobtrusively vegetarianize.)
I think pragmatism has to play a big role. Being there as a friendly witness for the plant-based cause probably does more to advance that cause than any lecturing or cutting yourself off from family would.
No, Elizabeth, eating a chicken isn’t morally equilvalent to raping a person in the way that robbing a bank isn’t morally equivalent to raping a person. They are both immoral acts as far as I’m concerned, but that doesn’t mean that they are equally immoral. A rapist takes pleasure in humiliating and degrading women, while someone who eats chicken is usually deliberately unaware of what the chicken’s life was like prior to its death and ignorant too of the manner of its death (or, they just don’t care or consider it important.)
I would rebuke both a bank robber and a rapist, but consider the latter to be the far greater offender against the dignity of living things.
I understand. That’s why I buy cage free eggs
.
I find vegan diet a little too extreme but this is just my opinion. I’ve been a lacto-ovo-vegetarian for about 14 years and I feel great. When I’m constantly asked why I never eat meat I reply:” It’s because of my religious beliefs” and the discussion ends right there. (Yes, the reason is true).
Also, I have to say, Hugo, your religious take on this issue seems to be cementing the connection between veganism and Puritanism.
Magdala, I certainly think cage-free is much better than the caged alternative.
My family has some very happy chickens who have a great life in a large protected pen. I choose not to eat their eggs because it’s easier to be completely vegan than to go back and forth for me. If I were absolutely certain of the conditions under which a cow or chicken was being raised and cared for, and knew those conditions to be excellent, I’d still not eat their product — I’m not interested, at this stage, in consuming anything from animals. But it’s much better to eat things that are produced by well-treated creatures, if you are going to eat milk and eggs.
John, thanks for that hoot of a link. I loved this howler:
Most vegetarians are women. In Britain, a person is doubly likely to suffer from vegetarianism if he is female. Part of the reason for this is that women like the taste of meat less than men. This stems from the fact that women have inherited the instincts of gatherers and men those of hunters. In all hunter-gatherer societies today, however, women prize meat. They love meat, just not quite as much as men do. The greater reason, I believe, is that women use vegetarianism to test men. By requiring men to deny themselves pleasure, they test the resolve of the men, and their loyalty. It is a very effective test of loyalty. The proof of this is that the VAST majority of men who succumb to vegetarianism (I’m afraid I have lost the figures, which weren’t 100% reliable anyway, because the accurate comprehensive study of this has not be done – it would cost a fortune, and no one needs to know that much) either have vegetarian sexual partners, or are trying to get some. Just as tellingly, when men split up from their veggie girlfriends, they near invariably start enjoying meat again. This goes to prove amongst other things that men really will do ANYTHING for sex.
Um, I was a vegan before my wife. I’m much more hardcore than she is.
And I’m quite willing to give the lie to the notion that a commitment to justice is impossible to balance with a commitment to pleasure.
Oh, I know that guy says some things that are far out there — almost as silly as saying that rabbits have innate value comparable to a human being.
The difference, John, is that he’s making sweeping and unsupportable generalizations designed to slur vegetarians; I’ve shown no such comparable nastiness towards carnivores (as is the point of this post.) The moral argument for the worth of animals is eloquently made by a wide variety of theologians and moral philosophers. I ought to put up a reading list one of these days!
Eating chicken is immoral? Maybe for you it is. I think it’s great that you are “working out your salvation†with “fear and trembling,†but was it immoral for Jesus to eat fish? He could have eaten like John the Baptist, but he chose a different way.
I do think that the way many animals are treated is terrible. The treatment of dogs in Korea really sticks out to me. The irony of it is that if their lives would improve if they were classified as livestock instead of raised as a black-market “product†that the government says doesn’t exist.
Even when I ate meat, I was never what you’d consider to be a “foodie.†As I’ve written before, in my pre-vegan bachelor days, I could consist for days, even weeks, on food-related products purchased at the local 7-11. Being vegan does force me to be more thoughtful about what I’m eating, but it’s a thoughtfulness born more of necessity rather than pleasure. That doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy my food, I do. But I’ve never had much interest in contemplating exciting new meals. Cooking shows — at least the sort where you are shown how to make something — are stunningly dull.
Wow. That explains why I have such a strong reaction to your posts on veganism—you and I speak completely different languages when it comes to food! (even to the word “foodie”—I loathe the term. Do we call someone who’s played and studied the guitar or trumpet for decades a “guitarie” or a “trumpetie”? No, even if they don’t play for a living, we still give their deep interest and avocation the respect it deserves. I suspect we don’t do so with food because—nonprofessionally—it is still primarily a female avocation (though you wouldn’t know that from the break tables on my jobsites—recipes get just about as much discussion as sports scores). When I cook, it’s a celebration of many things—my heritage, family, artistry, creativity, the fact that I’m still alive—dammit, I put a piece of me into those meals, and the term “foodie” just doesn’t deliver the gravitas on the plate, capisce?)
Ahem. Anyway, there have been times in my life when I was poor, as an adult and as a child, but food was the last thing to go—that was top priority, having a damn tasty meal. Think of the film “Big Night” and you’ll be on the right track. Seriously. I was raised next to the stove. Even the cheap meals (which you’ll be happy to know were mostly of the meatless variety!) had to have that near-orgasmic level of taste. So, when I read about you surviving on 7-11 food for weeks, it tells me a lot about the gap I have in understanding your view of food.
I’m not here to bust your chops, Hugo. You and I have another gap concerning food; the use of animals and animal products. Humans and livestock co-evolved with one another, and I think it’s appropriate to raise animals, use their milk, eggs, and flesh for food. I’m at peace with my inner predator, and I don’t hold an animal life equivalent to that of a human. I consider “don’t kill what you won’t eat” to be the ethical consideration—it’s waste that is immoral, not killing. So, about the only way you could convince me to consider vegetarianism (veganism is off the table—way too restrictive) would be to emphasize the intense sensory pleasures of the vegetarian table. That vegetable broth tastes better than meat or fish-based broth. That a plateful of beans is better than a rare steak, freshly seared from the grill.
Here’s the thing—my diet is plant-based. It’s just supplemented with meat. Asking me to give up meat is like asking me to give up books, music, sex. So, when I hear you talk about giving up meat, but illustrate it with how you used to survive on junk food, it’s like listening to a person who never really enjoyed sex (just performed it quickly and occasionally in order to “satisfy” a partner) explain the joys of the newfound celibate life.
Hugo, simply being a good, non-judgmental, happy example is probably the BEST way to convince others that giving up animal products is a good idea. (What’s the quote about preaching the Gospel, and using words as a last resort?) People who see that you respect them enough to let them alone, yet are perfectly happy with your vegan choices, are far more likely to think “Geez, maybe there’s something to this vegan thing,” without feeling like you’re leaning on them purely to get ego points.
Sane vegan here. Meat is murder.
Thank you so much for this article. It articulates so many of my recent thoughts. It’s difficult to strike a balance between being honest and being polite. I find myself getting into heated online discussions I would never have in real life, not because the anonymity of the web makes me less respectful, but because the anonymity of the web makes it easier for me to be honest.
I am offended when my meal partners order meat. But I lie and say I’m not. I do think judgmental thoughts about people who selfishly choose to consume unnecessary flesh, particularly the people who choose things like fois gras, lobster, or veal. But I lie and tell them I would never judge them. I tell them simply, “I would make another choice, but the choice is yours to make.”
I haven’t lost any friends as a result of my veganism. Some of my friends are vegan and my family is vegetarian, so I have a great support system. But sometimes I wish I had lost some friends. I wish I were more honest with the people who matter most to me, instead of with strangers on the web.
By all means, be honest with them. It seems silly to base a friendship on a lie, especially if that lie is “I like and respect you”.
Mythago, you misunderstand the lie.
The difference, John, is that he’s making sweeping and unsupportable generalizations designed to slur vegetarians; I’ve shown no such comparable nastiness towards carnivores
Don’t you think some people would consider being called a murderer (what else could you mean by suggesting that a rabbit has similar worth to a human being?) an example of “nastiness”? Or maybe even a “slur”?
Anyway, I respect the moral arguments here, but at bottom, I can’t help thinking that vegans are like lions who have somehow convinced themselves that it’s morally wrong to hunt gazelles and water buffalo, and who mope around eating grass and singing their own praises. No offense; I’m not calling you a murderer or anything like that.
I should note that I have been thinking about my meat consumption. For one, I don’t eat veal. The other day, I told my b/f that we should see a horse race one of these days since we live right next door to the Santa Anita Race Track. He said, “No, it’s animal exploitation.” I asked him why he thinks horse racing is wrong but eating meat is okay, which led is to discuss some other issues regarding meat consumption. So yeah, I’m thinking about it!
I’m an omnivore with a vegetarian partner. Given that we moved to his home town most of our friends were originally his friends and the vast majority of them are veggie or vegan. I’m completely comfortable eating what I want around them, although it took a while. Some of the more self-righteous still occansionly try to guilt me about eating meat and fish, or try to make me feel disgust.
It doesn’t work as my omnivorism is (probably unusually) a considered moral choice for me and I’m quite happy to defend it over dinner – after all, as we eat veggie most of the time eating meat is an active choice for me that usually requires extra effort. Pointing out that what I’m eating was once something’s leg or whatever doesn’t freak me out either as I’m someone who has, on occansion, had dinner preparation start with turning a cute furry bunny into a pile of meat (I edited my description of this process for the sake your sensibilities). I’ve also visited a slaughterhouse. Why? If I’m going to eat meat I’m damm well going to understand the process involved.
Anyway, I’ve wandered from the point I meant to make. Your relatives will get used to eating differently to you so long as you are kind enough not to try and force your choices on them. And if it makes them think a little about the way they eat that’s not a bad thing.
So, let’s see … you’re a member of a group of people who believe that an act is a moral issue who finds yourself at odds with the world around you, you often find yourself the target of scorn for your moral convictions and accused of wanting to shove your beliefs down their throat; you have people dismissing your moral convictions as a morally neutral choice which you are welcome not to participate in, are often judged for your beliefs, and are in the uncomfortable position of sharing your conviction with a segment of folks who are in turn judgmental, obnoxious, and sadly prone to violence..
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Hugo,
Quite frankly I do not understand the rationale behind being a vegan for anything other than health. It is perfectly natural to eat animals.
In fact, I NEED to eat red meat for the sake of my health. I am anemic. The quickest, most efficient way of putting iron into my system is through the consumption of red meat. And no, you can’t get iron as readily from green leafy vegetables. The iron contained in veggies is structured differently. There are fewer enzymes in the human stomach than in other animals so we can’t break down certain plant nutrients (iron) as easily. Cooking vegetables HELPS but it also ends up destroying a lot of the vitamins. Cattle, however, have already digested the nutrients in plants and broken down the iron in it. My apologies for choosing my health.
Human women also loose huge amounts of iron every month due to their menses. They loose FAR more than the few other animals that menstruate in the animal kingdom. This is probably THE reason that we, as a species developed our taste for meat. Incidentally this is also the reason why IF you go on birth control it is actually MORE healthy to take it constantly. -Certainly the health of the hormones is debatable, BUT if you’re going to take them better to avoid the depletion of blood loss.
Rochel, check out http://www.nutritionmd.org/index.html
Many reputable physicians and nutritionists suggest a supplement of ferrous sulfate meets menstruating women’s iron needs. The legions of healthy and vibrant vegan women (including many mothers) make clear that meat is, medically speaking, generally a choice rather than a necessity.
As for what is “natural”, any regular reader of this blog knows that I am not a defender of “natural”. Some folks argue infidelity and even rape are “natural”; what makes us good people is our capacity to restrict our natural instincts when they cause harm to others while retaining the capacity for cruelty-free pleasure.
Rochel, if you’re anemic relying on red meat is at best a stopgap measure. Something is probably causing your anemia; that’s the real problem, not whether you eat hamburger. And if you’re anemic, you should be relying on iron supplements as well because you’re simply not going to get enough iron through your diet. If you were, you wouldn’t be anemic, nu?
I’m perfectly content to eat meat, but I don’t see meat-eating as a moral choice to get back at those damn hippie tree-huggers or as Survival Food. I live in a wealthy, First World country where I don’t need to worry about where my next meal is coming from. I don’t need to think “If I don’t kill the cow, my kids will starve.”
I do believe that animal husbandry is an important part of agriculture, and I’m not particularly sentimental about it. But I don’t get the swaggering attitude about how Those Goddamn Vegans are trying to sap our precious, red-blooded Amurican bodily fluids by suggesting that we not eat steak.
Elaine, I may well be misunderstanding. But I would not want somebody who despised me and my choices to smile and pretend to be my friend. I would not want to be the friend of a person I considered to be loathsome and selfishly cruel. I’m not trying to scold you–just agreeing that, yes, it would be better to be honest and probably to end the ‘friendship’.
I agree with La Lubu on this one. I’m definitely more of the ‘don’t kill it if you won’t eat it’ type.
I can respect the choices people who are vegetarian/vegan, I know and love plenty who are, and I can eat with and cook for them perfectly happily. But I enjoy meat, I know where my food comes from, I’ve done my share of skinning/butchering animals, and I don’t have a problem with it. I try to buy free range/cruelty free whenever possible, but I also don’t beat myself up if I can’t find/afford it at that particular time.
Rachel said,
It’s funny to me how many omnivores use nature and instinct as a justification for their moral choices (by its self absurd, since morality is determined by choice, not instinct), yet simultaneously deny the similarities between humans and animals.
However, the belief that humans and animals are equal is not necessary for the belief that ethical veganism is superior to omnivorism. All that’s required is a belief that animals and humans are equivalently entitled to exist without externally imposed unnecessary suffering, not that they’re actually, technically equal.
I think the thing that makes us human is that we can make choices. We are not ruled by nature/ instinct/ evolution. We can choose to kill or not to kill.
The FACT that vegetarian and vegan diets are nutritionally sound diets for humans proves that our choice to eat meat is exactly that, a choice. When you eat meat, you are choosing to kill. When you eat meat, you are saying animals are not entitled to exist without externally imposed unnecessary suffering. You are saying your taste buds are more important than an animals’ suffering.
John Doe said,
No, we’re humans who have made a moral choice. Lions are strict carnivores. They MUST eat meat to survive. Humans do not need to kill in order to survive.
And we’re not moping around. I love food. And I have the belly to prove it.
Your assumption that vegan food tastes like grass is just wrong. You’re probably just used to a high fat, high sugar, high sodium diet and so your palate is not accustomed to vegan foods and cannot accurately measure vegan foods. You know how sometimes you eat a desert that tastes “too rich” and you can’t eat it? Well that’s sort of what meaty foods taste like to us.
Mythago said,
Ah, here is the crux of our misunderstanding. I despise their choices, not them.
I’m a little unclear as to how you can despise somebody’s choices without recognizing that they are making those choices, and that says something about them. “I like you as a human being, except for your moral beliefs and how you act on those beliefs”–well, what exactly do you like me for, then, our mutual interest in World of Warcraft?
Mythago, I do think it possible to love someone whom you regard as making fundamentally immoral and unethical choices. Relationship, friendship, and love are not always based on compatible ethical systems but on shared histories, other shared passions, and an often indescribable sense of affinity that transcends all other difference.
People on the one side of the abortion fence get very peeved and feel judged, and resentful when people on the other side frame things as “A moral choice.”
I could just as easily say “It’s funny to me how many homosexuals use nature and instinct as a justification for their moral choices (by its self absurd, since morality is determined by choice, not instinct)….” and people who are gay would be likewise peeved about being judged.
I know that in the leftosphere, “being judgmental” is one of the cardinal sins, but like it or not, that is what you are doing.
And I am stunned into chuckling speechlessnes when I consider the venom I hear when a “fundie” (talking about homosexuality) says “Love the sinner, hate the sin” – they are told: “How can you do that? That’s just a &#@%$@#! RIDICULOUS thing to say….” and yet you hear “I despise their choices, not them.” and “I do think it possible to love someone whom you regard as making fundamentally immoral and unethical choices.”
Isn’t saying something like “Meat is murder, but I still want to be your friend” a little like saying, “Well, Mr. Gacy, except for the 30 boys buried in your crawlspace, you’re a helluva guy!”
I mean, seriously. Come on. People are running around on the left side of the fence who wish me dead because I don’t believe in affirmative action, and you’re telling me that you can be friends with someone who commits what is – in your eyes – the capital crime of murder? We execute people for murder. We lock them up for life.
Yes, Gonz, I am saying that my faith (bolstered by my personality, perhaps) permits me to be in relationship with people who eat meat, who vote Republican, who believe in their hearts that my salvation is not secure (and may even suspect I am damned).
Well, I eat meat, haven’t voted Republicrat…
..except back in 96 when I voted for a DEMOCRAT for county prosecutor…
since 1991, and believe that “once saved, always saved” is a dangerous heresy.
and care much more about clothing than food
Wow, that’s an ordering of pleasures that’s totally alien to me; I can’t imagine caring more about clothing than food. Not that I think there’s anything wrong with it; I just can’t imagine feeling that way.
and believe that “once saved, always saved†is a dangerous heresy.
I’m with you on that one.
I suspect, though, that Hugo’s talking about people who are dubious about his current status with regard to salvation, not people who hold the theological view that however saved he might be now, he’s not guaranteed to always be saved.
No, because as Hugo pointed out, murdering humans is not condoned by our society. Murdering humans is not promoted by every other television commercial. Human murder is not illegal.
I am an atheist, feminist vegan. I can be friends with meat-eaters just the same way that I can be friends with theists. I don’t have to share ALL of my values with my friends, just some of them.
That said, my best friend, my husband, is an atheist, pro-feminist vegan.
Sorry, typo.. should read:
Human murder IS illegal.
I am an atheist, feminist vegan. I can be friends with meat-eaters just the same way that I can be friends with theists.
Do you believe that theism is a moral wrong, akin to murder?
Hugo, it may be “possible” to love somebody you believe is making immoral and unjustifiable choices, but is it wise? We choose friends, unlike family members.
This isn’t about disagreement; it’s about values and morals. I can be friends with a Wiccan; I can’t be friends with somebody who believes rape is justifiable, especially if I know that person is a rapist. I
Hugo, it may be “possible†to love somebody you believe is making immoral and unjustifiable choices, but is it wise?
Wisdom has only recently begun to play even a small factor in my “who I’m friends with” decision making, so gosh, I’m not sure. Good question.
Why be friends with wrongdoers? Why enable their choices by saying, in effect, “Your vile opinions and/or actions aren’t so bad that I’m willing to stop being your pal–they’re more like an intellectual disagreement than any moral problem”?
Mythago, back when I was a heavy-drinking, pill-popping, sexually promiscuous, chronically deceitful self-mutilating you-know-what, it was the people who loved me despite all that who helped keep me alive long enough for the miracle to happen. If they had turned their backs on me in disgust, I doubt I’d be here now.
Or you might have hit bottom and realized that you were behaving so abominably that even those who loved you didn’t want to be around you.
Again, you’re mixing up a lot of issues — family vs. friends, and imperfect behavior vs. vile, or even evil, morals and behavior. Could you really be friends with somebody who told you “I actually really get off on rape, and I spend my vacation in countries where there’s no real legal consequences as long as I pick the right target”? Would you be able to lovingly, but respectfully, disagree with a person who raised dogs or chickens for fighting? What about someone who agreed that fur farms are horrible, but couldn’t bring himself to give up his chinchilla jacket?
Would you really be able to set aside your opinions of such behavior and say “Gosh, people stuck by me when I was an asshole, so who am I to judge you?”
Mythago,
I can’t answer for Hugo, but for me, no, of course I couldn’t be close friends with someone who said those things. Likewise, I wouldn’t stop myself from judging them, just as I judge meat-eaters in private. Moreover, I am not close friends with people who do not share my core values. (Key word: close)
But I have to take my judgments in context. After all, most vegans ate meat at one time in their lives and made the conscious choice to stop. I ate meat until age six and I ate dairy off and on until age 31.
We live in a society that not only allows meat eating, but a society that promotes it. It’s very different than any of the analogies you suggested.
The animal rights movement, like the feminist movement and the civil rights movements are called movements because that’s what they’re about: change, evolution, shift. Hugo and I, by choosing to befriend those who haven’t yet moved to embrace a more humane lifestyle are not condoning their inhumane actions. We are simply recognizing that the movement is moving and they’re stuck behind it, in outdated and wrong ideas. And our passions may be elsewhere, but these people are still family, they’re still friends, they’re still people who deserve respect.
Yes, silence is consent in many issues, but we’re not talking about being completely silent. We’re talking about being respectful, being polite, choosing to argue a different point. Hugo’s talking about attending family functions. I’m talking about reminding people their food is a choice, not a natural or necessary thing. Neither of us condone meat-eating in our blogs. Neither of us preach about the value of omnivorism. We’re both actively pro-vegan.
And remembering that these are movements and that all the people involved in them are moving and changing, perhaps my thoughts about openly judging people will change over time.
I have a grandmother who is racist. Should I disown her? Should I try to convert her? Or should I just limit my relationship with her so that I’m comfortable, and if she ever comes around and sees the light, well, then I can expand that relationship. It’s not likely she’ll come around. So, I’m just going to keep sending her birthday cards and wishing her well and let that be that.
Elaine, you said you didn’t want to speak for me, but I’m in complete agreement with you about movements, compromise, and the willingness to be patient.
Elaine, I’m not saying either you or Hugo ought to cut people dead if they are not vegan. But what you seem to be saying is that you’re willing to befriend murderers who live in society that condones murder, in the hopes that they will come around.
True, we don’t live in a society where violent rape is acceptable (mostly). But we do live in a society where the sexual exploitation of women and enforcing gender roles through pressure up to and including violence is acceptable. If an uncle of yours lived in a state where there was a marital-rape exemption, would you be willing to remain close in the hopes that he would come to realize raping your aunt was wrong?
What I’m getting at is that if you think eating meat is not merely wrong, but is murder, it seems that you’re making excuses for friends by saying “oh, they can’t help it, they were raised in this society” or “well, maybe they will learn from my example.” The same logic would apply to a rapist.