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	<title>Comments on: Grieving the best choice</title>
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	<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/</link>
	<description>Author, Speaker, Professor, Shattering Gender Myths</description>
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		<title>By: bmmg39</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17720</link>
		<dc:creator>bmmg39</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 23:39:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17720</guid>
		<description>&quot;The textbooks are clear that the two-week embryo is fully human, but personhood itself requires sentience, and that is not there yet.&quot;

I will clarify that the textbooks are not only clear that the two-week embryo is human, but also that (s)he is A human. And while I&#039;ve seen some people attempt to create some sort of distinction between &quot;human being&quot; and &quot;person,&quot; I opt to lean towards science and use the terms interchangeably.

&quot;The reason I can support abortion rights while being a vegan rests on the notion of sentience and the capacity to feel pain. It is why later-term abortions do trouble me more than earlier ones.&quot;

Careful, speaking too much about &quot;sentience&quot; will turn you into Peter Singer, who, as well all know, is a lunatic who supports infanticide. If I see an ant walking across the floor, I could simply step on him/her and (s)he would die instantly, hardly suffering at all. So do I do it? Of course not, because, suffering pain or otherwise, that ant has a life that possesses value. As for our species, we are human beings long before we possess the ability to feel pain.

&quot;Thatâ€™s a big part of why every feminist I know â€” including several devout Catholics, and even one who is opposed to abortion â€” is a strong supporter of contraception.&quot;

What is your definition of &quot;support&quot;? I don&#039;t know anyone who is in favor of making contraceptives illegal -- provided that they are true contraceptives, rather than abortafacient agents. But that doesn&#039;t mean that everybody thinks that using artificial methods of birth control is always the best course of action, or that the &quot;contraceptive mentality&quot; that a child is equivalent to a venereal disease (to be prevented at all costs!) is at all healthy. I believe that abortion gained such a foothold (to the chagrin of both pro-lifers and some pro-choicers) because this contraceptive mentality was already so popular. Mind you, this is not to condemn everyone who uses contraceptives, but those who eschew them aren&#039;t backward-thinking, either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The textbooks are clear that the two-week embryo is fully human, but personhood itself requires sentience, and that is not there yet.&#8221;</p>
<p>I will clarify that the textbooks are not only clear that the two-week embryo is human, but also that (s)he is A human. And while I&#8217;ve seen some people attempt to create some sort of distinction between &#8220;human being&#8221; and &#8220;person,&#8221; I opt to lean towards science and use the terms interchangeably.</p>
<p>&#8220;The reason I can support abortion rights while being a vegan rests on the notion of sentience and the capacity to feel pain. It is why later-term abortions do trouble me more than earlier ones.&#8221;</p>
<p>Careful, speaking too much about &#8220;sentience&#8221; will turn you into Peter Singer, who, as well all know, is a lunatic who supports infanticide. If I see an ant walking across the floor, I could simply step on him/her and (s)he would die instantly, hardly suffering at all. So do I do it? Of course not, because, suffering pain or otherwise, that ant has a life that possesses value. As for our species, we are human beings long before we possess the ability to feel pain.</p>
<p>&#8220;Thatâ€™s a big part of why every feminist I know â€” including several devout Catholics, and even one who is opposed to abortion â€” is a strong supporter of contraception.&#8221;</p>
<p>What is your definition of &#8220;support&#8221;? I don&#8217;t know anyone who is in favor of making contraceptives illegal &#8212; provided that they are true contraceptives, rather than abortafacient agents. But that doesn&#8217;t mean that everybody thinks that using artificial methods of birth control is always the best course of action, or that the &#8220;contraceptive mentality&#8221; that a child is equivalent to a venereal disease (to be prevented at all costs!) is at all healthy. I believe that abortion gained such a foothold (to the chagrin of both pro-lifers and some pro-choicers) because this contraceptive mentality was already so popular. Mind you, this is not to condemn everyone who uses contraceptives, but those who eschew them aren&#8217;t backward-thinking, either.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17719</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 21:31:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17719</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;understanding fully that it is far from an easy decision&lt;/I&gt;

Yet you paint it as an &quot;easy&quot; choice anyway, and pretend that the choice pushed on women is abortion, not adoption, as if women aren&#039;t told &quot;you can just give it up for adoption&quot;? And bringing up your friends with fertility issues doesn&#039;t really make it sound as though you are all that concerned about the woman facing the choice. She&#039;s not merely a brood mare for couples who can&#039;t have babies, you know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>understanding fully that it is far from an easy decision</i></p>
<p>Yet you paint it as an &#8220;easy&#8221; choice anyway, and pretend that the choice pushed on women is abortion, not adoption, as if women aren&#8217;t told &#8220;you can just give it up for adoption&#8221;? And bringing up your friends with fertility issues doesn&#8217;t really make it sound as though you are all that concerned about the woman facing the choice. She&#8217;s not merely a brood mare for couples who can&#8217;t have babies, you know.</p>
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		<title>By: Antigone</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17718</link>
		<dc:creator>Antigone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 02:56:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17718</guid>
		<description>I really, really want to find out where people seem to think that &quot;pro-choice&quot; means &quot;abortion is happy and fun&quot;.  Nobody on the pro-choice side wants a lot of abortions, but they don&#039;t want them because they don&#039;t want &quot;unwanted pregnancy&quot;.  Abortion isn&#039;t a great option, but then again, neither is open-heart surgery.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really, really want to find out where people seem to think that &#8220;pro-choice&#8221; means &#8220;abortion is happy and fun&#8221;.  Nobody on the pro-choice side wants a lot of abortions, but they don&#8217;t want them because they don&#8217;t want &#8220;unwanted pregnancy&#8221;.  Abortion isn&#8217;t a great option, but then again, neither is open-heart surgery.</p>
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		<title>By: Noumena</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17717</link>
		<dc:creator>Noumena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 01:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17717</guid>
		<description>Chad, a point that I feel is important, but is small in the particular context of your last comment:  You don&#039;t like the `extreme&#039; of the pro-choice that thinks that `the best birth control is simply abort the baby&#039;.  I don&#039;t know (personally) any feminist that think this, and I can&#039;t think of a feminist in the public square that has said something to this effect.  Every feminist I know realises that abortion is painful, inconvenient, and often traumatic.  That&#039;s a big part of why every feminist I know -- including several devout Catholics, and even one who is opposed to abortion -- is a strong supporter of contraception.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chad, a point that I feel is important, but is small in the particular context of your last comment:  You don&#8217;t like the `extreme&#8217; of the pro-choice that thinks that `the best birth control is simply abort the baby&#8217;.  I don&#8217;t know (personally) any feminist that think this, and I can&#8217;t think of a feminist in the public square that has said something to this effect.  Every feminist I know realises that abortion is painful, inconvenient, and often traumatic.  That&#8217;s a big part of why every feminist I know &#8212; including several devout Catholics, and even one who is opposed to abortion &#8212; is a strong supporter of contraception.</p>
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		<title>By: Chad</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17716</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17716</guid>
		<description>I guess my biggest thing is I am deeply afraid of the extremes of anything like this (like extreme left and right in politics too).  The pro-lifers I cannot really relate to, even though I feel personally that it is the only viable choice, because they are so fanatical about &quot;no abortion, no how, no way&quot; regardless of the cost to the mother or the mother&#039;s decision to do what she wants with her body.

At the same time, the extreme of the other side almost pushes for &quot;do what you want with no thought to the consequences...the best birth control is simply abort the baby.&quot;  I think there is a big part of personal accountability before God and ourselves that leaves out being responsible for the choices that lead to pregnancy to begin with.

I am middle of the road on the issue as a whole.  I agree that neither option is wonderful and always right in and of itself, but I guess if there is any fence-sitting involved I would fall off on the side of adoption.  Maybe it is my own experience, but I cannot say with a clear conscience that &quot;it would be better to have a mill-stone tied about your neck and be dropped into the sea than you should harm one of these little ones&quot; does not influence my thinking as well.

I wish there were an easy answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess my biggest thing is I am deeply afraid of the extremes of anything like this (like extreme left and right in politics too).  The pro-lifers I cannot really relate to, even though I feel personally that it is the only viable choice, because they are so fanatical about &#8220;no abortion, no how, no way&#8221; regardless of the cost to the mother or the mother&#8217;s decision to do what she wants with her body.</p>
<p>At the same time, the extreme of the other side almost pushes for &#8220;do what you want with no thought to the consequences&#8230;the best birth control is simply abort the baby.&#8221;  I think there is a big part of personal accountability before God and ourselves that leaves out being responsible for the choices that lead to pregnancy to begin with.</p>
<p>I am middle of the road on the issue as a whole.  I agree that neither option is wonderful and always right in and of itself, but I guess if there is any fence-sitting involved I would fall off on the side of adoption.  Maybe it is my own experience, but I cannot say with a clear conscience that &#8220;it would be better to have a mill-stone tied about your neck and be dropped into the sea than you should harm one of these little ones&#8221; does not influence my thinking as well.</p>
<p>I wish there were an easy answer.</p>
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		<title>By: Mermade</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17715</link>
		<dc:creator>Mermade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 19:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17715</guid>
		<description>I agree with you, Chad. At the moment, I am not sure what to call myself. I am not ready - and perhaps never will be ready - to call myself pro-choice. I personally could never get an abortion, nor could I support someone financially who wanted one. Of course, I disagree with the pro-life crowd on a lot of issues related to abortion as well, but that&#039;s another topic entirely.

I hear there&#039;s a new movie out about abortion. It&#039;s in independent theaters. I am not sure what the title is, but I hear that it&#039;s pro-life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you, Chad. At the moment, I am not sure what to call myself. I am not ready &#8211; and perhaps never will be ready &#8211; to call myself pro-choice. I personally could never get an abortion, nor could I support someone financially who wanted one. Of course, I disagree with the pro-life crowd on a lot of issues related to abortion as well, but that&#8217;s another topic entirely.</p>
<p>I hear there&#8217;s a new movie out about abortion. It&#8217;s in independent theaters. I am not sure what the title is, but I hear that it&#8217;s pro-life.</p>
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		<title>By: Chad</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17714</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17714</guid>
		<description>That said, I can appreciate your stance with the girl you talk about in this entry.  Walking through the myriad possibilities and repercussions was the right thing to do.  

I just think that often abortion is the &quot;easy&quot; way out (understanding fully that it is far from an easy decision - I have been on the &quot;counseling&quot; side of this as well with a teenager who entrusted me to help her through it...and in the end she also opted for abortion) but all too often the push from society and worry about parent&#039;s reactions and so on push one to simply terminate and then sweep it under the rug (that was this girl&#039;s thought processes in the end).  

I would argue that carrying the baby to full term and then giving it up is far harder than deciding for the abortion.  I would also argue that in the end the abortion is far more damaging to the soul, at least in the vast majority of cases.

Believe it or not, I do consider myself pro-choice...I believe God gifted us with freedom of choice and that we have to have those choices available to us to fully realize the blessings that come from those choices.  I just happen to believe that in the majority of cases, abortion is the wrong choice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That said, I can appreciate your stance with the girl you talk about in this entry.  Walking through the myriad possibilities and repercussions was the right thing to do.  </p>
<p>I just think that often abortion is the &#8220;easy&#8221; way out (understanding fully that it is far from an easy decision &#8211; I have been on the &#8220;counseling&#8221; side of this as well with a teenager who entrusted me to help her through it&#8230;and in the end she also opted for abortion) but all too often the push from society and worry about parent&#8217;s reactions and so on push one to simply terminate and then sweep it under the rug (that was this girl&#8217;s thought processes in the end).  </p>
<p>I would argue that carrying the baby to full term and then giving it up is far harder than deciding for the abortion.  I would also argue that in the end the abortion is far more damaging to the soul, at least in the vast majority of cases.</p>
<p>Believe it or not, I do consider myself pro-choice&#8230;I believe God gifted us with freedom of choice and that we have to have those choices available to us to fully realize the blessings that come from those choices.  I just happen to believe that in the majority of cases, abortion is the wrong choice.</p>
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		<title>By: Noumena</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17713</link>
		<dc:creator>Noumena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17713</guid>
		<description>Chad, adoption can be just as difficult -- physically and emotionally -- as abortion.  Pregnancy and delivery put a lot of stress on a woman&#039;s body -- after a dozen pregnancies (that&#039;s not hyperbole), the devoutly Catholic grandmother of a good friend went on the pill because the last few nearly killed her, and another definitely would.  If there was a pregnancy in this or similar situations, adoption really wouldn&#039;t be an option, because the pregnancy itself really wouldn&#039;t be an option.  

Also, opponents of abortion (and some feminist critics of surrogate motherhood) sometimes argue that an emotional bond forms between a pregnant woman and the foetus she is carrying.  Assuming this bond is real, then adoption could be almost as traumatic as a stillbirth or miscarriage.  In this case, an aborting the pregnancy early on, well before such a bond can form, might be the better option.  

Of course, I don&#039;t want to argue that adoption is a bad idea.  I just want to resist the oversimplifying assumption of many opponents of abortion -- that, while abortion is a `hard choice&#039;, adoption is the `easy choice&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chad, adoption can be just as difficult &#8212; physically and emotionally &#8212; as abortion.  Pregnancy and delivery put a lot of stress on a woman&#8217;s body &#8212; after a dozen pregnancies (that&#8217;s not hyperbole), the devoutly Catholic grandmother of a good friend went on the pill because the last few nearly killed her, and another definitely would.  If there was a pregnancy in this or similar situations, adoption really wouldn&#8217;t be an option, because the pregnancy itself really wouldn&#8217;t be an option.  </p>
<p>Also, opponents of abortion (and some feminist critics of surrogate motherhood) sometimes argue that an emotional bond forms between a pregnant woman and the foetus she is carrying.  Assuming this bond is real, then adoption could be almost as traumatic as a stillbirth or miscarriage.  In this case, an aborting the pregnancy early on, well before such a bond can form, might be the better option.  </p>
<p>Of course, I don&#8217;t want to argue that adoption is a bad idea.  I just want to resist the oversimplifying assumption of many opponents of abortion &#8212; that, while abortion is a `hard choice&#8217;, adoption is the `easy choice&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17712</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17712</guid>
		<description>Chad, my first instinct in that painful strange spring of 1985, when I was about to turn eighteen and my girlfriend was a year younger, was to ask her to put the child up for adoption.  But it was not my choice to make, and ought not to have been; my body would never swell, I would never be the subject of nasty gossip, and so forth.

Adoption is &lt;em&gt;one&lt;/em&gt; choice, and a fine choice, but one that comes with far greater costs than the deeply affecting (but decidedly rose-colored) vision painted in &quot;Juno.&quot;  I honor those who freely give of themselves in this way, but there&#039;s a colossal distinction between honoring it as one option among many and privileging it as the &quot;best&quot; one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chad, my first instinct in that painful strange spring of 1985, when I was about to turn eighteen and my girlfriend was a year younger, was to ask her to put the child up for adoption.  But it was not my choice to make, and ought not to have been; my body would never swell, I would never be the subject of nasty gossip, and so forth.</p>
<p>Adoption is <em>one</em> choice, and a fine choice, but one that comes with far greater costs than the deeply affecting (but decidedly rose-colored) vision painted in &#8220;Juno.&#8221;  I honor those who freely give of themselves in this way, but there&#8217;s a colossal distinction between honoring it as one option among many and privileging it as the &#8220;best&#8221; one.</p>
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		<title>By: Chad</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17711</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-17711</guid>
		<description>You would not necessarily have a 22-year-old in your life Hugo.  I was adopted and thank God every day that my parents did not opt for abortion.  

I also have friends right now (2 couples) who are patiently waiting to adopt.  They cannot conceive (both medically necessary hysterectomies (sp)) and desperately want a child.  The wait has been pretty long.

Why is this choice coveniently left out of so many of these conversations regarding being pro-choice?

This is what made Juno such a great flick.  The &quot;other&quot; choice was actually in the spotlight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You would not necessarily have a 22-year-old in your life Hugo.  I was adopted and thank God every day that my parents did not opt for abortion.  </p>
<p>I also have friends right now (2 couples) who are patiently waiting to adopt.  They cannot conceive (both medically necessary hysterectomies (sp)) and desperately want a child.  The wait has been pretty long.</p>
<p>Why is this choice coveniently left out of so many of these conversations regarding being pro-choice?</p>
<p>This is what made Juno such a great flick.  The &#8220;other&#8221; choice was actually in the spotlight.</p>
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