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	<title>Comments on: Reprint: A lengthy musing about sowing wild oats</title>
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	<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/08/04/reprint-a-lengthy-musing-about-sowing-wild-oats/</link>
	<description>Author, Speaker, Professor, Shattering Gender Myths</description>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/08/04/reprint-a-lengthy-musing-about-sowing-wild-oats/#comment-14955</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 22:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I always thought the expression bizzare &quot;sowing oats&quot; phrase, especially in the random sex context (rack up the numbers scorecard). The people I knew used it solely to justify irresponsible and selfish behavior, including some women. I read the phrase actually dates back to the fifteenth century, and refers to folly rather than excesses. Wild oats are not as profitable as domesticated oats, so if you&#039;re sowing them, you&#039;ll get little return. All the oat sowers that I knew had STD&#039;s and passed them along, unless they got lucky. Usually the self-centered oat sowers had drug and alcohol abuse problems and tried to influence others into their unhappy lifestyle. Generally the self-centered oat sowers created a lot of chaos and excelled at destructive alienating behaviors spreading misery and unhappiness to everyone around them. This reminds me of a guy I met who ran with the party crowd. He worked for the ski patrol and said the crowd he ran with liked to party til they puked and skiied till they died. He indulged in this type of lifestyle until he was 40, married a woman around 20 and divorced within a year or so. He lived with another more responsible woman mooching off of her goodwill while manipulating other women into sexual affairs. He&#039;s living with another woman (her idea) claiming he isn&#039;t the marrying kind and then finally last time we spoke said he &quot;was lost&quot; and unhappy and pushing 48 years. I suppose he wanted to call me to inquire if I was available....NO WAY!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always thought the expression bizzare &#8220;sowing oats&#8221; phrase, especially in the random sex context (rack up the numbers scorecard). The people I knew used it solely to justify irresponsible and selfish behavior, including some women. I read the phrase actually dates back to the fifteenth century, and refers to folly rather than excesses. Wild oats are not as profitable as domesticated oats, so if you&#8217;re sowing them, you&#8217;ll get little return. All the oat sowers that I knew had STD&#8217;s and passed them along, unless they got lucky. Usually the self-centered oat sowers had drug and alcohol abuse problems and tried to influence others into their unhappy lifestyle. Generally the self-centered oat sowers created a lot of chaos and excelled at destructive alienating behaviors spreading misery and unhappiness to everyone around them. This reminds me of a guy I met who ran with the party crowd. He worked for the ski patrol and said the crowd he ran with liked to party til they puked and skiied till they died. He indulged in this type of lifestyle until he was 40, married a woman around 20 and divorced within a year or so. He lived with another more responsible woman mooching off of her goodwill while manipulating other women into sexual affairs. He&#8217;s living with another woman (her idea) claiming he isn&#8217;t the marrying kind and then finally last time we spoke said he &#8220;was lost&#8221; and unhappy and pushing 48 years. I suppose he wanted to call me to inquire if I was available&#8230;.NO WAY!</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/08/04/reprint-a-lengthy-musing-about-sowing-wild-oats/#comment-14954</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 18:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/08/04/reprint-a-lengthy-musing-about-sowing-wild-oats/#comment-14954</guid>
		<description>It does, in the sense of getting a job, raising a family, not going out and partying with your friends until 3 a.m. like you did when you were young, that kind of thing - but yeah, largely in the sexual context. And it is true that for many people, early &quot;settling down&quot; means a lot of wondering later on if they missed something or didn&#039;t have all the fun they could have.

That&#039;s different, though, from justifying irresponisble and selfish behavior. Hugo&#039;s young friend&#039;s boyfriend could have just as easily had a whirlwind dating life while behaving responsibly towards his girlfriend; not cheating, for example. (Of course, this rather common scenario is one reason I think serial monogamy in dating is idiotic.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It does, in the sense of getting a job, raising a family, not going out and partying with your friends until 3 a.m. like you did when you were young, that kind of thing &#8211; but yeah, largely in the sexual context. And it is true that for many people, early &#8220;settling down&#8221; means a lot of wondering later on if they missed something or didn&#8217;t have all the fun they could have.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s different, though, from justifying irresponisble and selfish behavior. Hugo&#8217;s young friend&#8217;s boyfriend could have just as easily had a whirlwind dating life while behaving responsibly towards his girlfriend; not cheating, for example. (Of course, this rather common scenario is one reason I think serial monogamy in dating is idiotic.)</p>
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		<title>By: bmmg39</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/08/04/reprint-a-lengthy-musing-about-sowing-wild-oats/#comment-14953</link>
		<dc:creator>bmmg39</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 00:09:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/08/04/reprint-a-lengthy-musing-about-sowing-wild-oats/#comment-14953</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m glad you&#039;re addressing this. I&#039;ve long been nauseated by the &quot;sow your oats&quot; phrase, and in more way than one. First, there&#039;s the aesthetic gross-out image of a man &quot;sowing oats&quot; into the soil by -- well, you know. Second, and more importantly, is the implication that men (or people in general) simply HAVE to get all this random sex out of their systems before they can think about getting married. It&#039;s an anti-male slur (as well as unfair to women) to perpetuate this double standard, and, I point out again, if you&#039;re a sexually INactive male, people then imply that there&#039;s something wrong with you. I never had any oats to sow, and, if I had, I&#039;d probably follow the metaphor to its logical end and figure that my &quot;oats&quot; are there for nature&#039;s reproductive purposes.

To be frank, I never liked the phrase &quot;settling down,&quot; either, as I&#039;m not sure exactly what it&#039;s supposed to mean. Does it suggest that everyone is out &quot;sowing oats&quot; until he gets tired of it, and then and only then he can think about marriage, wife, and family? Or does it have a non-sexual context?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad you&#8217;re addressing this. I&#8217;ve long been nauseated by the &#8220;sow your oats&#8221; phrase, and in more way than one. First, there&#8217;s the aesthetic gross-out image of a man &#8220;sowing oats&#8221; into the soil by &#8212; well, you know. Second, and more importantly, is the implication that men (or people in general) simply HAVE to get all this random sex out of their systems before they can think about getting married. It&#8217;s an anti-male slur (as well as unfair to women) to perpetuate this double standard, and, I point out again, if you&#8217;re a sexually INactive male, people then imply that there&#8217;s something wrong with you. I never had any oats to sow, and, if I had, I&#8217;d probably follow the metaphor to its logical end and figure that my &#8220;oats&#8221; are there for nature&#8217;s reproductive purposes.</p>
<p>To be frank, I never liked the phrase &#8220;settling down,&#8221; either, as I&#8217;m not sure exactly what it&#8217;s supposed to mean. Does it suggest that everyone is out &#8220;sowing oats&#8221; until he gets tired of it, and then and only then he can think about marriage, wife, and family? Or does it have a non-sexual context?</p>
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		<title>By: Volly</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/08/04/reprint-a-lengthy-musing-about-sowing-wild-oats/#comment-14952</link>
		<dc:creator>Volly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:10:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/08/04/reprint-a-lengthy-musing-about-sowing-wild-oats/#comment-14952</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s absolutely spot-on about women.  I consider myself fairly normal and civilized (&quot;well brought up&quot;).  Yet it&#039;s frustrating to look back on my 20s, when I married basically because it was expected and someone asked me, then felt trapped to the point that I had a brief (2 week) fling just to see what it was like.  And then &quot;getting religion&quot; afterward, thinking it would be good to confess. 

Wrong.  Wrecked marriage, with aftershocks continuing 22 years after the affair and 12 years after the divorce.  Now my college-age son has jumped on board the condemnation bandwagon (having recently been told by his still-vindictive father), and he didn&#039;t even come along until three and a half years after the event, so it&#039;s not like his paternity is in question or anything.  

I can&#039;t help but think, would a man be going through this?  Doubtful.  It would be written off as &quot;just another little adventure in the life of a normal young man.&quot;  But a woman?  Oh, perish the thought.  We&#039;re either Madonnas (the one in the Raphael paintings, not the one on MTV) or whores.  

Nuts to that, y&#039;all.  You don&#039;t like the way I behaved, go find someone else to send you checks.

Harumph.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s absolutely spot-on about women.  I consider myself fairly normal and civilized (&#8220;well brought up&#8221;).  Yet it&#8217;s frustrating to look back on my 20s, when I married basically because it was expected and someone asked me, then felt trapped to the point that I had a brief (2 week) fling just to see what it was like.  And then &#8220;getting religion&#8221; afterward, thinking it would be good to confess. </p>
<p>Wrong.  Wrecked marriage, with aftershocks continuing 22 years after the affair and 12 years after the divorce.  Now my college-age son has jumped on board the condemnation bandwagon (having recently been told by his still-vindictive father), and he didn&#8217;t even come along until three and a half years after the event, so it&#8217;s not like his paternity is in question or anything.  </p>
<p>I can&#8217;t help but think, would a man be going through this?  Doubtful.  It would be written off as &#8220;just another little adventure in the life of a normal young man.&#8221;  But a woman?  Oh, perish the thought.  We&#8217;re either Madonnas (the one in the Raphael paintings, not the one on MTV) or whores.  </p>
<p>Nuts to that, y&#8217;all.  You don&#8217;t like the way I behaved, go find someone else to send you checks.</p>
<p>Harumph.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/08/04/reprint-a-lengthy-musing-about-sowing-wild-oats/#comment-14951</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 09:09:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/08/04/reprint-a-lengthy-musing-about-sowing-wild-oats/#comment-14951</guid>
		<description>Good to see some of these reprints on the hiatus.  They cover some interesting topics that might not come up more recently in the general ebb and flow of salient blogging.

My thoughts about this is the extent to which relationship and sexual norms are contextualized by social expectations, something that was only somewhat brushed on here.  The &quot;sowing the wild oats&quot; phase (and did you ever go a few rounds with that metaphor!), as you pointed out, has been an expectation of young men going back to at least the 17th century, or at least the metaphor has existed since then.  Perhaps something similar has at least partially arisen for young (and not so young, ala &quot;Sex and the City&quot;) women in recent decades, fraught as it may still be with double standards.  Or perhaps not.  Others have shown themselves more qualified to address the relative position of young women on this score.

The &quot;wild oats&quot; phase appears to have been and to be something that is tacitly tolerated, if not condoned, for a particular phase of a young man&#039;s life.  At some point, at least historically, religion, reputation and social standing, the expectations of parents and of the community, and legal and economic structures (the legitimacy of and provision for offspring, inheritance, extension of insurance coverage, vagaries of the tax codes, et cetera ad infinitum) collectively represented the social expectation of eventual monogamy.

Much of that has broken down in the last 50 years or so.  The mores that demanded monogamy arising from religion and community norms receded in cosmopolitan settings.  Contraception and abortion made illegitimacy and single-parenthood in the absence of marriage a wholly avoidable outcome for many (and, for others, an affirmative choice).  The law changed to reflect new circumstances, to make dissolving marriage easier and to extend previously the exclusive benefits of marriage to others.  And the rising costs of living, of time and money invested in careers, and of raising a family further pushed back that choice for many, and made it a decision worthy, at the very least, of greater preparation and consideration.

The point is that the norm that people were to eventually settle down into staid monogamy, and that &quot;sowing oats&quot; was, at most, a phase, occurred in a very specific cultural context that, in many ways, no longer exists.  It cannot be definitively said to represent or to have ever represented any generally applicable and appropriate life-plan fulfilling genuine basic human needs for all people.  Absent the cultural demands for eventual monogamy and marriage, the choices of some today, including perhaps those who &quot;have been sowing their oats fairly consistently since the early days of disco&quot;, may better and more nearly reflect and fulfill their own personal and social needs and preferences.  This isn&#039;t an excuse for reckless or irresponsible behavior.  The modern age presents new norms of responsibility, particularly in the age of AIDS, &quot;deadbeat dads&quot;, and sex scandals, that carry serious consequences if violated (more serious in many ways than, say, having a scion or two born below the bar sinister would have been 400 years ago).  And certainly we all ought to be as considerate of the needs and desires of the people in our lives, for the time that they are in our lives, to the extent that our own needs and desires as autonomous individuals permit.  But a disinclination towards or the impracticality of the &quot;Ozzie and Harriet thing&quot; does not necessarily itself recklessness or irresponsibility make.  At the very least, there is a good argument to make, given longer life-expectancies and the rising cost of living, career and family formation, that a longer period of adolescence and young adulthood, with all the experimentation and freedom from later commitments that come with these, ought to be considered a natural and unsurprising reflection of the contemporary state of affairs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good to see some of these reprints on the hiatus.  They cover some interesting topics that might not come up more recently in the general ebb and flow of salient blogging.</p>
<p>My thoughts about this is the extent to which relationship and sexual norms are contextualized by social expectations, something that was only somewhat brushed on here.  The &#8220;sowing the wild oats&#8221; phase (and did you ever go a few rounds with that metaphor!), as you pointed out, has been an expectation of young men going back to at least the 17th century, or at least the metaphor has existed since then.  Perhaps something similar has at least partially arisen for young (and not so young, ala &#8220;Sex and the City&#8221;) women in recent decades, fraught as it may still be with double standards.  Or perhaps not.  Others have shown themselves more qualified to address the relative position of young women on this score.</p>
<p>The &#8220;wild oats&#8221; phase appears to have been and to be something that is tacitly tolerated, if not condoned, for a particular phase of a young man&#8217;s life.  At some point, at least historically, religion, reputation and social standing, the expectations of parents and of the community, and legal and economic structures (the legitimacy of and provision for offspring, inheritance, extension of insurance coverage, vagaries of the tax codes, et cetera ad infinitum) collectively represented the social expectation of eventual monogamy.</p>
<p>Much of that has broken down in the last 50 years or so.  The mores that demanded monogamy arising from religion and community norms receded in cosmopolitan settings.  Contraception and abortion made illegitimacy and single-parenthood in the absence of marriage a wholly avoidable outcome for many (and, for others, an affirmative choice).  The law changed to reflect new circumstances, to make dissolving marriage easier and to extend previously the exclusive benefits of marriage to others.  And the rising costs of living, of time and money invested in careers, and of raising a family further pushed back that choice for many, and made it a decision worthy, at the very least, of greater preparation and consideration.</p>
<p>The point is that the norm that people were to eventually settle down into staid monogamy, and that &#8220;sowing oats&#8221; was, at most, a phase, occurred in a very specific cultural context that, in many ways, no longer exists.  It cannot be definitively said to represent or to have ever represented any generally applicable and appropriate life-plan fulfilling genuine basic human needs for all people.  Absent the cultural demands for eventual monogamy and marriage, the choices of some today, including perhaps those who &#8220;have been sowing their oats fairly consistently since the early days of disco&#8221;, may better and more nearly reflect and fulfill their own personal and social needs and preferences.  This isn&#8217;t an excuse for reckless or irresponsible behavior.  The modern age presents new norms of responsibility, particularly in the age of AIDS, &#8220;deadbeat dads&#8221;, and sex scandals, that carry serious consequences if violated (more serious in many ways than, say, having a scion or two born below the bar sinister would have been 400 years ago).  And certainly we all ought to be as considerate of the needs and desires of the people in our lives, for the time that they are in our lives, to the extent that our own needs and desires as autonomous individuals permit.  But a disinclination towards or the impracticality of the &#8220;Ozzie and Harriet thing&#8221; does not necessarily itself recklessness or irresponsibility make.  At the very least, there is a good argument to make, given longer life-expectancies and the rising cost of living, career and family formation, that a longer period of adolescence and young adulthood, with all the experimentation and freedom from later commitments that come with these, ought to be considered a natural and unsurprising reflection of the contemporary state of affairs.</p>
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