Last night, my wife and I took some friends of ours to see the new musical 9 to 5, written by Dolly Parton and based on the iconic 1980 film of the same name. Just last Tuesday, the show had its world premiere not on Broadway but here in Los Angeles; it will be moving to New York in early 2009.
We went for a variety of reasons, but mostly because all six of us, as different as we are, are devoted Dolly Parton fans. The part that Dolly made famous in the film is played by the wonderful actress Megan Hilty (who did a splendid “Glinda” in many productions of “Wicked”); Allison Janney (of “Juno”, “West Wing”, and “Primary Colors” fame) took over the Lily Tomlin part and acquitted herself very well. The music and lyrics, all by Parton, were accessible, memorable, and fun. The house was packed, and I feel quite certain the show will have a long and successful run here and elsewhere.
But I’ve written before about my deep fondness for Dolly Parton. Last night, watching the show — with its gently feminist theme of exploited working women rising up against a tyrannical and sexist boss — I thought of, you guessed it, Sarah Palin.
Virtually everyone agrees that Sarah Palin has, at least so far, helped the Republican ticket. Mind you, she’s got seven weeks to turn from an asset into a liability for John McCain, and I suspect that by the time we’ve made it close to Halloween, some of the initial enthusiasm for her will have subsided. That may be wishful thinking, of course — it’s also possible that her selection will prove the decisive factor in the election, and a galvanized conservative base will provide the GOP with the winning margin in November as a result. I certainly hope not, but I take that possibility seriously.
I don’t know who Dolly Parton is endorsing in this election. Dolly has always soft-pedaled her politics (though there is a very funny and vicious crack thrown at George W. Bush in the finale of “9 to 5″). Unlike her comrade-in-arms Emmylou Harris (whose advocacy for many social justice causes, especially veganism and animal rights, has made some of her right-wing fans squirm), Parton has carefully eschewed open involvement in the political arena. Dolly has legions of gay fans, whom she always warmly acknowledges — but she also has a strong fan base in southern and rural America. Including, one suspects, a great many voters to whom the selection of Sarah Palin was carefully calculated to appeal.
The themes of Dolly’s life, abundantly on display in her music and stage shows, are of determination, indominability, faith, and an enthusiastic embrace of what we in the gender studies world might call “feminine performativity.” Dolly doesn’t hide her breasts (famous since the Nixon Administration); Dolly doesn’t hide her many cosmetic surgeries or her painstaking attention to her appearance. (When we saw her last month in concert, the 62 year-old made innumerable references to being physically “artificial” yet emotionally authentic.) There’s no question that Dolly is, for many, a feminist icon: few female artists in the history of the recording industry have amassed the power and influence she has, and she’s never shied away from naming sexism as a very real obstacle she has faced along the way. In her new musical, she makes that feminism more explicit than ever before.
But Dolly’s is still — mostly — an apolitical feminism. It is also a rural feminism, comfortable with guns and God and men with drinking problems and wandering hands. Her most recent single is worked into one of the new show’s most compelling numbers: “Backwoods Barbie”. The song, which has done well on the country charts this summer and is getting a fair amount of airplay, is charmingly autobiographical:
I grew up poor and ragged, just a simple country girl.
I wanted to be pretty more than anything in the world,
like Barbie or the models in the Fredricks’ catalog.
From rags to wishes in my dreams I could have it all.
I’m just a backwoods Barbie, too much makeup, too much hair.
Don’t be fooled by thinkin’ that the goods are not all there.
Don’t let these false eyelashes lead you to believe that
I’m as shallow as I look ’cause I run true and deep.
I’ve always been misunderstood because of how I look.
Don’t judge me by the cover ’cause I’m a real good book.
So read into it what you will, but see me as I am.
The way I look is just a country girl’s idea of glam.
I’m just a backwoods Barbie in a push-up bra and heels.
I might look artificial, but where it counts I’m real.
And I’m all dolled up and hopin’ for a chance to prove my worth,
And even backwoods Barbie’s get their feelings hurt.
I’m just a backwoods Barbie, too much makeup, too much hair.
Don’t be fooled by thinkin’ that the goods are not all there.
Yes, I can see where I could be misjudged upon first glance;
But even backwoods Barbie’s deserve a second chance.
I’m just a backwoods Barbie just asking for a chance,
just a backwoods Barbie.
If the polling data can be believed, Sarah Palin is enormously popular among rural and small-town white women. And those of us in the larger, hipper, more urban and sophisticated areas make fun of Palin’s hair, or make-up, or the names of her children at our peril. We may be appalled at her delight in hunting, we may sniff at her newest son’s middle name (Trig Van Palin, as a tribute to Sarah and Todd’s favorite band), but when we make our condescension and exasperation too obvious, we play into the hands of the political operatives who are going after the very same demographic that identifies (if only a wee bit) with Dolly’s song.
I’m just a backwoods Barbie, too much makeup, too much hair.
Don’t be fooled by thinkin’ that the goods are not all there.
Megan Hilty’s sublime rendition of this song last night moved some folks in the audience to tears, this blogger included. But even as I wiped away the moisture from my cheeks, it became clear to me that Palin is being very cleverly marketed to appeal to those who believe that “simple, ordinary Americans” are being ignored by coastal, big-city liberal elitists. Dolly has spent a lifetime making a point that she can’t be judged by her looks — in her case, the “goods” are all there, gloriously, a thousand times over. The Palin-McCain campaign (for truly, that is what it has become) understands the visceral indignation that so many working-class white women have at not being taken seriously.
Sarah Palin took a great many years to earn a single degree from a second-tier university. She has five children on whom she and her husband have bestowed colorful names, the sort of names that make many of us who are not in her natural constituency roll our eyes — but the sort of names that are not at all uncommon today among the white working class. (Just check out the recent baby name data.) Upper middle-class whites rarely allow their daughters into pageants; in the Midwest and the South (and, evidently, in Alaska), beauty pageants are enormously important in the lives of a great many communities, particularly those made up of the aspirational lower-middle classes. Trust me, these folks are acutely sensitive to what they perceive, not always wrongly, as the ridicule and dismissiveness of the so-called elites.
“Backwoods Barbie” isn’t just a cute song to many in this demographic — it’s a war cry on behalf of those who feel patronized, underestimated, and snubbed. For a great many folks, Sarah Palin strikes the same chord. Those of us who are appalled at Palin’s politics must be far more careful than we have been to separate our horror at her views from even the slightest frisson of contempt for her appearance, her background, her mannerisms, or even her lifestyle choices. (Children’s names are lifestyle choices.) Palin deserves to be taken seriously as an opponent; as Dolly’s song reminds us, we underestimate working-class white women with too much makeup and too much hair at our peril. And above all, those of us in the progressive left need to repent of our own too obvious discomfort with rural white American culture. We may never embrace guns or NASCAR or Pabst Blue Ribbon, but we can sure do a better job of recognizing the worth and dignity of those for whom those sorts of pastimes are staples of identity.
I’m as guilty as any, perhaps more so than most, when it comes to a certain kind of snobbishness. It’s one of my worst character flaws, and as with any defect which we dislike in ourselves, I am keenly sensitive to this dangerous and indefensible habit of looking down at those whose values and upbringing are radically different. To the extent that any of us on the left allow even a whiff of condescencion towards Governor Palin to ooze from our pores, we enable our opponents to market her more effectively to the crowd who see a bit of themselves in a song like Backwoods Barbie.
So, when the show comes to your town, go see it. And in the meantime, let’s be doubly, triply careful to avoid any hint of classism and cultural contempt towards Sarah Palin. The governor of Alaska is no Dolly Parton. And we need to make sure we don’t give any reason for the fans of the latter to become fond of the former.
It’s too late. They already know the contempt the liberal political class has for them. These aren’t stupid people, by and large.
One couldn’t ever accuse ME of indulging in classism-based contempt, nor culturally-based contempt; I grew up in Kansas in a town, if stripped of its military and inmate population, wouldn’t have been much bigger than Wasilla, and quite at the decided bottom end of the socioeconomic bracket as well. My family certainly qualified for public assistance; the only reason we were never on it was because my mother would have rather died. (When my dad had his stroke eight years ago, she relented enough to get some assistance for his medical bills, as the stroke left him too disabled to work and in need of her full-time care so she couldn’t work either.)
It always interests me to watch self-identified “liberals” turning backflips to convince the “ig’r'ent ‘n PROUD OF IT!” types that oh no, no indeedy, NOT ELITIST NO NO NO–of course I’m not elitist. What the heck do I have to be elitist about, precisely, given my background? By even acknowledging such a ridiculous taunt, all you do is give it substance. Anyone who is opposed to liberals and their politics based on that elitist line crap, is either honestly stupid and being cruelly exploited by those on the lookout for that (and them, I feel bad for, but I cannot see what can be done about it–lack of intellect in no way abrogates the free will everyone’s born with and deserves) or being willfully ignorant (in which case who gives a crap what they think) or simply being manipulative (ditto #2).
“Trust me, these folks are acutely sensitive to what they perceive, not always wrongly, as the ridicule and dismissiveness of the so-called elites. … To the extent that any of us on the left allow even a whiff of condescencion towards Governor Palin to ooze from our pores, we enable our opponents to market her more effectively to the crowd who see a bit of themselves in a song like Backwoods Barbie.
”
Hugo, it is nuggets of wisdom like these, that keep me reading your blog. Watch out though, your “elite” friends on the left might take away your membership card.
There is an interesting essay on this topic called “WHAT MAKES PEOPLE VOTE REPUBLICAN?” at http://edge.org/3rd_culture/haidt08/haidt08_index.html
“Conservative positions on gays, guns, god, and immigration must be understood as means to achieve one kind of morally ordered society. When Democrats try to explain away these positions using pop psychology they err, they alienate, and they earn the label “elitist.” But how can Democrats learn to see—let alone respect—a moral order they regard as narrow-minded, racist, and dumb?
…
In several large internet surveys, my collaborators Jesse Graham, Brian Nosek and I have found that people who call themselves strongly liberal endorse statements related to the harm/care and fairness/reciprocity foundations, and they largely reject statements related to ingroup/loyalty, authority/respect, and purity/sanctity. People who call themselves strongly conservative, in contrast, endorse statements related to all five foundations more or less equally. (You can test yourself at http://www.YourMorals.org.) We think of the moral mind as being like an audio equalizer, with five slider switches for different parts of the moral spectrum. Democrats generally use a much smaller part of the spectrum than do Republicans. The resulting music may sound beautiful to other Democrats, but it sounds thin and incomplete to many of the swing voters that left the party in the 1980s, and whom the Democrats must recapture if they want to produce a lasting political realignment.”
Okay, so what are we supposed to do? Pretend this Palin woman is for real when she is not? Pretend she’s not a phony? Pretend she’s not a fake? (Just this once I decline to use the shopworn word “hypocrisy” since “hypocrisy” describes a real thing and the thing I’m trying to describe here is not real but false.) When Dolly Parton calls attention to her too much makeup and too much hair, it works, because with her the goods really are all there: she can point to accomplishments she’s brought about in her life which don’t depend exclusively on mirrors, smoke, and slime. Sarah Palin can’t. Sarah Palin’s act is a travesty, and I use that word advisedly, of the sensibility Dolly Parton represents. The only thing Sarah Palin has going for her is that she’s capable of mimicking convincingly (I had almost said “mocking”) the kind of affect people tend to display when they feel that they’ve been hard-done-by in some style. Naturally the Palin dramatics have a certain appeal for people who actually have been dismissed and ridiculed (as opposed to fawned upon and slobbered over). In her person, they can triumph, if only by proxy and at one remove. But none of this alters the fact that the Palin performance is completely factitious. The only real thing about it is its effectiveness…and that, alas, is something that most Americans are going to have cause to regret for quite some time to come.
Sarah Palin’s particular schtick is a libel on rural people everywhere. I am a rural woman myself, and I’m willing to repeat what I’ve just written for as long as it takes to sink in. If I’m at this for the rest of my life, so be it.
Ooh, that was fun. Let’s see:
“Harm”: I have the same score as a conservative; I score much lower than a liberal.
“Fairness”: I score higher than both conservatives AND liberals. Hmmm…
“Loyalty”: I score lower than both conservatives and liberals. Double hmmm…
“Authority”: I score in-between conservatives and liberals.
“Purity”: I score lower than both conservatives and liberals. I don’t even make it to “1″ on the scale of “1 to 5.” heh.
Well, there’s a neat trick for you. Good luck with it. I’d suggest one thing: “The key to winning their hearts is sincerity. Once you can fake that, it’s easy street.”
There’s no thinly veiled anything. “Flyover Country.” Think of that – I have three degrees, and not from “hick colleges.” I graduated a year early from high school and college. My SATs were 1472 combined. I have 68 computer certifications.
But hey. I’m a rube from flyover country. And it’s okay. I know you hate me. I know you all laugh at me, in my pickup, gunrack and all. My NRA sticker makes you roll your eyes – but, just between you and me, the confederate flag plate on the front is really there because I know it honks you off.
Thing is – I can hide among you. I’ve owned a business and had to hobnob with the hoi polloi on occasion. I can speak your language. I can sip the same nasty glass of pretentious wine. I have suits. Pull the long hair back and wear the John Lennon glasses – very avaunt garde. The tweed suit with the leather elbow patches is a nice touch, too, and the open collar – very rebellious. I’ve been off to all kinds of places on contracts, for conferences, and when you don’t see the caricature of me you have built up – Unshaven, beer gutted, cigar chomping, trucker hat and wife-beater wearing redneck – you let your guard down and I hear what you really think of us.
You can’t hide so well among us.
Sarah Palin appeals to us because she really is one of us. She’s proud of the twang, proud of shopping at Wal-Mart, and not ashamed of where she came from.
Go ahead and keep the rubric of “ig’r’ent ‘n PROUD OF IT!†going. You might as well, because you really can’t hide it well. One thing about us “hilljacks” is that we have a very finely tuned BS detector. John Kerry’s attempt at being a “hunter” four years ago … jeez-louise.
Your opinions of us are well known; how we’re bitter folks clinging to God and Guns. If you think for a minute you’re going to convince us that you’ve had your come to Jesus moment and really and truly like us – well, I have some offshore farmland near New Orleans that I’d like to talk to you about.
I don’t try to hide my contempt for people who are ignorant and proud of it. I advertise it! …can it be possible that you’re suggesting that I (or anyone, anyone at all) should RESPECT it? Oh, my. If so, I see I have misunderstood the label “elitist” all along! I laughed heartily at the notion that I, who grew up poor and backwoods and who has a passel of family and childhood friends who still are there, would ever sneer at anyone for having done the same or for still being there–I thought THAT was the definition of “elitist.” However, if the definition of “elitist” is “contempt for willful ignorance–” oooh. Then I guess I AM. And bloody damn proud of it, too.
Your blog post had perfect timing. I was working out at the gym today on my lunch hour and listening to a Dolly Parton song on my iPod. I too am a liberal, feminist Dolly lover, and I find it interesting to note that I view her in a different way than I do Sarah Palin.
I have traveled and worked in Alaska, and Palin is classically Alaskan. That’s why she is so popular there.
In my own blog and conversations, I’ve tried to stay away from casting aspersions on her family background and the parenting decisions she’s made. When we stoop to that, it makes liberals look elitist.
On many feminist blogs, women have said that Palin can’t call herself a feminist. Is it really right to claim that term only for liberals? Instead perhaps we should be happy that she uses that title…because other women (and men) shy (or run!) away from it.
Here’s what I don’t like about Palin: her political beliefs, difficulty to separate church and state, lack of ethics, cronyism, hypocrisy, and tendency to stretch the truth. She is probably qualified to be VP, but not to be president.
Personally, I would like for our president to have a law degree. Neither McCain nor Palin have one. I would like the president to be well versed in foreign affairs, diplomacy, and democracy, and have the ability to build teams and negotiate compromises, both at home and abroad. Instead the Republicans pride themselves on their ability to “shake up Washington” (ha!) and be reformers, while their Palin’s own record contradicts that.
We have much to criticize Palin for, but I agree with you that if we can accept Dolly Parton as a feminist, we need to allow Palin to use that title too.
……and of course like many great talents, she had to cut her teeth with my dad first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgSCLBtgJes
I don’t try to hide my contempt for people who are ignorant and proud of it. I advertise it! …can it be possible that you’re suggesting that I (or anyone, anyone at all) should RESPECT it?
Respect for the peasants? Perish the thought. What right-thinking person might ever prefer the outdoors to the neon city? What educated person might prefer a beer and a burger to brie and chardonnay? What manner of Philistine might prefer to see, say, a “common” comedy, as opposed to some subtitled foreign, indie film? Loud rock and roll over some simpering androgynous pop star?
Oh, my. If so, I see I have misunderstood the label “elitist†all along! I laughed heartily at the notion that I, who grew up poor and backwoods and who has a passel of family and childhood friends who still are there, would ever sneer at anyone for having done the same or for still being there–
Sure seems that way to me. “Doesn’t agree with me” = “i’gn’rent” is how your worldview comes across to me. No?
Did you express yourself poorly? Perhaps you’d like to try again?
I thought THAT was the definition of “elitist.†However, if the definition of “elitist†is “contempt for willful ignorance–†oooh. Then I guess I AM. And bloody damn proud of it, too.
First – define “willful ignorance.”
Second – I will then submit to you that a great many “educated” people are just as guilty of it. In a lot of ways, more so.
A lot of those people you label “willfully ignorant” are guilty of nothing more than examining your world view, weighing it, measuring it, and finding it wanting.
oh lordy…for the record sarah was my mayor and is my Governor.
what always gives me a laugh is when the “don’t look down and stereotype us you liberal snobs who think you are better then us” go all hog wild with stereotyping liberals. And you don’t like be condescended to and insulted when all you do is insult and look down on liberals for not being the right kind of American. pot meet kettle.
And while you are hooting about what cheese and beer consumption makes you more american and other apparently important cultural thingee’s our economy is tanking, war, foreign policy needs attention, health care crisis, etc. Like whatever you want, but lets try focusing on making our country better, not who has this or that cultural identifier.
oh for the record, i am not a “real”American because i was born on the east coast
Again…if we’re defining “peasants” as “people who are ignorant and proud of it,” no, not only do I have no respect for them, I would happily and vigorously argue that NOBODY should! I can’t say I personally have a definition for “peasant” that would fit anybody who is currently alive in the US today; I only ever use the word myself in a historical context. If you want to provide a definition yourself, I can definitely tell you whether or not I respect a person who falls under that definition.
As far as all the subsequent babble about “neon lights” and “brie” and so forth, I have no idea what strawperson you are describing–are you attempting to guess my personal culinary and lifestyle preferences? If you’re that curious, all you gotta do is ask, y’know.
I can’t imagine, either, where you get that I think “doesn’t agree with me” = “ignorant.” I’m sorry to have to regurgitate a dictionary definition, but to me, that is the definition of “ignorant”–”a person lacking in knowledge.” I wouldn’t consider failing to regurgitate a dictionary definition as expressing myself poorly; I didn’t express it at all, as I was assuming we all knew what the definition of the word was. My bad!
“Wilful ignorance”–I don’t actually disrespect a lack of knowledge in of itself; I do, however, VERY much disrespect a person who DELIBERATELY lacks knowledge, because he or she prefers that state because it is too much trouble/too contradictory to his or her previously existing prejudices to actually investigate any given situation.
Oh, I don’t define “not ignorant” as “having a college education.” My mother’s best friend (who was actually the mother of my best friend) growing up, dropped out of high school in the tenth grade and she was one of the quickest-minded, best-read adults I knew growing up–in a literary sense, she was far more educated than most so-called “English” majors I’ve ever known. My grandpa was the only person in my family (til me) who even had a complete college education, and he didn’t get his til after the Korean war and while he was a noncom in the Army. Any dumbass can buy a college degree.
I could say to you, with an equal amount of accuracy, “A lot of those people you label “elitist†are guilty of nothing more than examining your world view, weighing it, measuring it, and finding it wanting.” Which renders the statement meaningless in both directions, eh? I believe the question here is more–are we debating in good faith, or not? If we are, I’m more than happy to continue clarification of our mutual viewpoints–if not, we’re probably just wasting each others’ time.
Sure seems that way to me. “Doesn’t agree with me†= “i’gn’rent†is how your worldview comes across to me. No?
Obviously, that interpretation is entirely in your head, and bears no relationship to anything Lisa KS said. As could be said of much of your last post.
She said, “Anyone who is opposed to liberals and their politics based on that elitist line crap,”
Which rules out those who are guilty of nothing more than examining your world view, weighing it, measuring it, and finding it wanting.
It’s hard to say whether it rules you out. I’m only interjecting here because I find it amusing how often people are determined to believe that other people are looking down on everyone like them.
“I don’t try to hide my contempt for people who are ignorant and proud of it.”
They’re not ACTUALLY ignorant, dearie. They’re referring to how you consider them as such. It’s analogous to how someone referring to you as an elitist doesn’t mean you’re actually part of the elite. It means you merely believe that to be the case.
“It’s analogous to how someone referring to you as an elitist doesn’t mean you’re actually part of the elite. It means you merely believe that to be the case.”
Actually, sugarpuss, what it means is that they believe that to be the case. It would only mean I believed it to be the case if I referred to myself as the elite.
You say potato…
Hugo, in reference to this topic, there was a pretty good book called “Deer Hunting with Jesus” by Joe Bageant that deals with some of this cultural divide.
Actually, sugarpuss, what it means is that they believe that to be the case. It would only mean I believed it to be the case if I referred to myself as the elite.
And in all actuality, what you believe of them means nothing. Perception is everything.
They perceive you as being elitist, an of holding them in contempt. And balling up your fists, scrunching your eyes shut, and jumping up and down while shout “Nunh-uh! Ain’t true! It’s a dirty Karl Rove Chimpy McHallibushitler trick!” isn’t getting you much traction with them.
Your call.
Seriously, I hope you continue down the same course. It’s kind of an election year ritual:
Liberal Pundit: We seem to be failing to connect with Rural America, they regard us as condescending and elitist…
Liberal: Well, pish-tosh! *I* certainly don’t regard them that way. Why … some of by best friends are ignorant uneducated red… er … rural people. Stay the course!
(Post election) Liberal: The damn Rethuglicans fooled the stupid teeming masses again!
I mean, the “I told you so” factor alone is most entertaining.
You stay beautiful. We love you just the way you are.
It’s hard to say whether it rules you out. I’m only interjecting here because I find it amusing how often people are determined to believe that other people are looking down on everyone like them.
I’m a libertarian. Unfortunately Ron Paul has jumped the shark, and we’ve nominated an idiot, so my vote is up for grabs, as is that of many like minded people I know.
You want to convince these “Bitter people clinging to Guns and God” that you don’t condescend and look down on them?
Good luck with that. You have 7 weeks. Sarah Palin gives John McCain a big head start.
“And in all actuality, what you believe of them means nothing. Perception is everything.”
I agree absolutely, which is the point I was making in the very first place–no wealthy liberal politician in power is any more “elitist” than his conservative counterpart–the only difference between such folks is their stated position on the issues. Not a damn one of ‘em wants you to pollute his personal airspace with your stanky powerless nonwealthy hide. Anyone who falls for that “oh but liberals are elitist I however am one with you my salt-o-the-earth redn–good ole small-town values country folksies!” crap is either genuinely stupid (sad, but not really reparable), willfully ignorant (so their opinion is absolutely worthless) or knows full well that they are propagating a line of bullshit but is willing to do so in the hopes of manipulating the genuinely stupid to follow suit (contemptible).
As for the rest of your comment, clearly you ain’t talkin’ to me, but to some strawperson you have lodged in your skull–so I guess that answers my question about good faith!
Yet somehow, conservatives never get called to the carpet for being elitist AND racist and sexist. Liberals get reamed for our attitudes, but somehow conservatives get a free pass to actually cut programs helping working class people from food stamps to funding for Title I schools to housing vouchers.
You know, Gonzman, the thing that defines “wilfull ignorance” to me, in an election context, is when people vote AGAINST their own economic interest.
For no other reason than that they full comfortable being bullied by rich frat boys, and feel that this is the natural order of things.
As a working class voter myself, it drives me insane to see the OTHERS who share my economic fate, blowing it for all of us, by their wilful ignorance.
And to be frank, sometimes it seems to me that the big factor the rural white populace is always voting about in some shrouded way, is race. It is never spoken, but I think it functions as the hidden spring: they or rather you will vote for whoever seems to promise to keep the niggers (and the wimmin) in their place.
THat’s why SP is such a find. She will enforce the Patriarchal Biblical inferiority of women FOR YOU. In her very personification!
Gonzman:
Your rubitude and your gun rack and your NRA sticker are all cool with me. Should it so happen that you’re telling the truth about driving an actual pick-up as opposed to an SUV, I’ve got to admit that I respect that, since what bugs me about SUVs is that they’re an affectation on the part of most of the people who drive them: off-road vehicles which never make it off the road, because if they were to be exposed to what you might call actual conditions their pretty paint jobs and their detailing might get marred. (Shopping at WalMart, OTOH, is nothing to brag about. It’s something one does out of necessity, not out of personal choice. My experience tells me that people who gloss this over are not being honest about the kinds of limitations they’re up against.) But I’m fine with most of the rest of what you’ve got to say about yourself. On that basis, I’m willing to be forthcoming about what in fact it is that I don’t like about you.
If you’re painting an accurate picture of how your mind works, and if out of a ground-level regard for you I choose to accept that picture as you describe it, I have to believe that you’re the kind of man who would back up a continuation of policies which have proven nothing but disastrous for this nation, which have taken us from global greatest-creditor status down to global greatest-debtor status, which have involved us in an unjustified war which is likely, when the bill for it is at last fully made out, to have ended up costing us trillions of dollars, and which have devastated the provisions listed in the Bill Of Rights, and why? Well…because you’re worried that some middle-aged ABC (Anything But Cool) Democratic hanger-on from backwoods Washington might think that you’re a redneck, even though you brag about being a redneck.
What’s up with that? Please explain if you can.
KMT Berry:
You have half the smarts and none of the generosity of Hugo. Those with whom you disagree are not only dumb, they’re clearly racist???
Stephen
“Yet somehow, conservatives never get called to the carpet for being elitist AND racist and sexist.”
Would they have to BE racist and sexist to be called as such, or is it okay with you if they’re not?
“THat’s why SP is such a find. She will enforce the Patriarchal Biblical inferiority of women FOR YOU.”
Sarah Palin is doing more for equality between the sexes than twenty leftist women ever could. You’re just angry because she got where she has without espousing your views. How very open-minded of you.
Uh, folks?
I’m gonna close this thread pronto if incivility continues. And being provoked is not an excuse for incivility on your part, either, as any of you who fought with your siblings were probably told when you were, oh, about eight years old.
I know how high the stakes are in this election, and how strong our feelings are — and how undercurrents of race and sex and class play themselves out. But it’s my blog, and I want everyone to stop the name-calling. That was the whole point of my piece in the first-place, I thought.
. . . sorrry . . .
I agree absolutely, which is the point I was making in the very first place–no wealthy liberal politician in power is any more “elitist†than his conservative counterpart–the only difference between such folks is their stated position on the issues. Not a damn one of ‘em wants you to pollute his personal airspace with your stanky powerless nonwealthy hide.
Which kind of proves my point. My “non-wealthy” hick farmer neighbor really isn’t all that impressed by a $60k Lexis when he has a $350K combine he drives for maybe three weeks out of the year.
I hunted with the Mayor several times last year. But then again, I am what many would consider wealthy, at least on paper.
You know, Gonzman, the thing that defines “wilfull ignorance†to me, in an election context, is when people vote AGAINST their own economic interest.
Made a lot of money in the Reagan years. Watched it dwindle and implode under Clinton. Opened and sold a business at a hefty profit under Bush.
(Shopping at WalMart, OTOH, is nothing to brag about. It’s something one does out of necessity, not out of personal choice. My experience tells me that people who gloss this over are not being honest about the kinds of limitations they’re up against.)
It’s close, and a loaf of bread is a loaf of bread. Though since I do my own raising, slaughtering,m and hunting I have little use for their meat department – which is good because it sucks.
I see no reason to buy the same product at an upscale market – that is elitist. And doing it as some kind of protest?
I have to believe that you’re the kind of man who would back up a continuation of policies which have proven nothing but disastrous for this nation, which have taken us from global greatest-creditor status down to global greatest-debtor status,
Which has been going on for a long time, and to which I blame the “Citizen of the World” nonsensical premise….
which have involved us in an unjustified
Opinion.
war which is likely, when the bill for it is at last fully made out, to have ended up costing us trillions of dollars,
Derived from bad premise.
and which have devastated the provisions listed in the Bill Of Rights, and why?
Which also was sinking under Clinton.
Well…because you’re worried that some middle-aged ABC (Anything But Cool) Democratic hanger-on from backwoods Washington might think that you’re a redneck, even though you brag about being a redneck.
What’s up with that? Please explain if you can.
Ah.
There’s your disconnect.
I really don’t care if they think I’m a redneck. In fact – I encourage it. If someone wants to rubricize me for what they see, I’m happy to know it, because it reveals to me great insight into their character.
You’d be surprised, I think, what we really talk about among ourselves.
Oh – yeah – it is a pickup. F-250. I do have an SUV, but it’s used for my off-road, hunting and camping expeditions, rather than suburban use. For in town use, I just drive my LeSabre.
And to be frank, sometimes it seems to me that the big factor the rural white populace is always voting about in some shrouded way, is race. It is never spoken, but I think it functions as the hidden spring: they or rather you will vote for whoever seems to promise to keep the niggers (and the wimmin) in their place.
And it seems to me that such is always the accusation.
THat’s why SP is such a find. She will enforce the Patriarchal Biblical inferiority of women FOR YOU. In her very personification!
Darn – they caught us out….
Cleetus! Giddap on ovah heah! Spread th’ wurd, son, them leftys caught us all kinds of out – whay in tarnation we evah thought we could fool them is plumb crazy! Imagine – we thawt we could keep da wimminflks down by electin’ one to th’ second highest office in de land! Lawzy! They waaaaaay to smart fer us poor hilljacks!
/sarc
KTMBerry–I am actually starting to enjoy SP’s candidacy–watching so many conservative spokesperson notables suddenly discovering that unwed teen pregnancy and motherhood is really not that big a deal! and says nothing at all about the teachings and beliefs of the parents! and sexism EXISTS! and it sucks! and inexperience isn’t really all THAT important! and–oh, heee!
You know, I’ve never understood this argument. Are Babs & friends, hosting their $28,000 a plate fundraisers for Obama, voting their economic interests? Why is it assumed that working- or middle-class voters who support Republicans are idiots for not voting their economic interests, but uber-wealthy and professional-class Democrats aren’t idiots for not voting theirs? It reeks of “Enlightened self-interest is for us! You’re supposed to be voting with your stomachs, you ignorant hillbillies!” Maybe it’s time to put this argument to rest. It appears to have very little predictive power. Or, at the very least, even if it does, the Democrats may have simply, in deed if not in word, abandoned the argument that they can offer anything to working class people (the Clinton years, with NAFTA and PNTR with China, in evidence).
Lisa KS,
I think that I can answer this one with your own words:
Tom: I think I can answer that one with Karl Rove’s, Bill O’Reilly’s and Dick Morris’s words.
http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=184086
I’ve seen that one Lisa, and I’ll admit either the inconsistency or the cognitive dissonance, whichever you prefer. Funny thing is, though, the only ones who seem to have gotten much dyspepsia over it are liberals or Democrats. But then, I guess for my part, I never could understand why Bill Clinton kept getting a pass for his behavior after Clarence Thomas and Bob Packwood.
“And to be frank, sometimes it seems to me that the big factor the rural white populace is always voting about in some shrouded way, is race. It is never spoken, but I think it functions as the hidden spring: they or rather you will vote for whoever seems to promise to keep the niggers (and the wimmin) in their place.”
I disagree with this comment and find it simplistic as well as offensive and they are not the sentiments, concerns and issues I hear from the rural people that I know. They are also not uneducated morons. I also know many people who express similar viewpoints to “the Gonzman”. Many of my friend’s political viewpoints are very different from my own, however I respect them as people and I also try to understand their viewpoints and find common ground, which in some cases is extremely difficult. One very conservative and politically active friend, who also runs a very successful business, imposes a special liberal tax, not only because he hates their politics, but also because they treat him and other working class people as beneath them. From the stories he tells me about his liberal clients, I can understand why he would dislike them as they sound incredibly arrogant, pretentious and condescending.
I agree with Robert’s sentiments above…”It’s too late. They already know the contempt the liberal political class has for them. These aren’t stupid people, by and large.”
“And to be frank, sometimes it seems to me that the big factor the rural white populace is always voting about in some shrouded way, is race. It is never spoken, but I think it functions as the hidden spring: they or rather you will vote for whoever seems to promise to keep the niggers (and the wimmin) in their place.
And it seems to me that such is always the accusation.”
I was born and raised in a very rural, very conservative area populated quite densely by rednecks (They call themselves rednecks, folks). The racism and misogyny in rural conservative areas is very real and very much alive. Many of them are actually quite proud of their racism and sexism. I get what The Gonzman is attempting to state and even agree with him to an extent. But there is absolutely no denying the blatant racism, sexism, and homophobia that is the typical backwoods individual.
You can find racism, prejudices and sexism anywhere, including cities. One can find these views expressed even in people who identify themselves as liberals. Some people are just better than others at hiding their true feelings and manipulating other people’s opinions of them. Lets just say that they are sneaky and deceptive. I was born and raised in southern California and have lived in many different locations, including smaller towns. People are people where ever you go.
“People are people where ever you go.”
Sure, you can find prejudice anywhere. Don’t deny that for a moment. The thing with backwoods people is that they don’t just have prejudice, the really do often take pride in their prejudice and display it blatantly.
For instance, I know some of these folks who have a life-sized wooden statue of a black servant in their basement. Want to know what they call their life-sized wooden slave? Oh, well, they call him “Nigger Fred”. “Nigger Fred” even has a piece of white gravel that someone put in his hand. Guess what that white gravel is supposed to represent?
Well, I know instances of city people, including professors who demonstrate the same kinds of prejudice, but they do so in far more cunning and manipulative ways. These types generally manipulate other’s opinions of them, claiming they are liberal to the crowd, while in private demonstrating a far different attitude. I recently accompanied a friend to a well-known animal shelter. She was looking to adopt a cat. It had the name DWB. It was a type of siamese cat. When I asked what the intials stood for, the worker replied that it stood for “Dirty White Boy”. They thought it inappropriate and so they left the initials. If I had the time and the interest I could offer far more disturbing instances of prejudice that I’ve encountered, it’s just more hidden, which I think even more insideous. The more manipulative a person is and also politically correct the less blatant and more hidden their agendas. The point is you can find examples of prejudice anywhere.
” The point is you can find examples of prejudice anywhere.”
A point I didn’t dispute.
I get what The Gonzman is attempting to state and even agree with him to an extent. But there is absolutely no denying the blatant racism, sexism, and homophobia that is the typical backwoods individual.
Really?
I’m part Lenni Lenape. The only racism I have ever encountered because of it – other than the isolated idiot in Martinsville who tried to recruit me for the Klan until he found out I was both Part Indian and Catholic – is from the Liberals who like to use such epithets as “Uncle Tom-Tom” when I won’t throw in with them.
And that has NOT been either rare or isolated. Rather epidemic, to be frank.
My “racist” rural neighbors really could care less.
And that has NOT been either rare or isolated. Rather epidemic, to be frank
This is a major untruth… and I think you know it.
Actually Ben “the Gonzman’s” experience is similar to my own experience of people who call themselves liberal and there’s a lot of dissonance between their private actions and words and public words. People tend to be quite cultish and uncomfortable around anyone who challenges their viewpoints of how other people should act and behave. They may vocalize that they are liberal and even manipulate some people into believing them, but their private actions and words indicate otherwise. I saw a lot of prejudice, but it was subtle. The only time it became more blantant is if you challenged their viewpoint. People who try to recruit me don’t know anything about how I believe–it is all about them and their beliefs and they make a lot of assumptions.
Karen,
Well, if it is your experience, then it is your experience, and I won’t refute it for what it is.
However, here’s a question to ponder(and really for people in general, including myself at times). Are you more concerned with truly working to try to stop close-minded people? Or do you just want to score political points?
“They may vocalize that they are liberal and even manipulate some people into believing them, but their private actions and words indicate otherwise.”
Some people who claim to be liberal do this, no doubt. I’ve seen it as well. However, it’s been my experience that people with liberal views tend to be far less hypocritical than those who aren’t.
Ben,
Why would I be trying to score political points? As for close-minded people I see those qualities in both people who claim to be liberal and conservative and probably independents too. I find the term close-minded problematic, since it’s open to interpretation. I’m certain my friends who view themselves as conservative see me as liberal and others who view themselves as more liberal than me, see me as conservative or whatever. I see a lot of problems with both liberals and conservatives and I get very irritated with people who try to back me into a corner and generally I become hostile and agitated. If you are seeking cooperation then you have to find common ground, which isn’t easy to do. My ultra-conservative friend, who refers to himself as a redneck, and I are polar-opposites when it comes to many political viewpoints and I wouldn’t think of condescending to him, even when I think he is completely off-base. What would that accomplish. I do listen and it’s taken some time, but he listens too. We’ve amazingly been able to bridge wildly differing viewpoints, while at the same time engaging in heated, passionate discourse. I do respect him, even if I disagree with him and because of that it makes him more willing to consider my points of view. Am I trying to deliberately change him? No, but because I’ve earned his respect I do influence him and he acknowledges my contributions to his life. He is very politically involved and was appointed by a high government official to represent constituents, although I would not feel free to say who, what or where. Change takes cooperation and that will not take place if you belittle or condescend to others.
Faith,
“a piece of white gravel that someone put in his hand. Guess what that white gravel is supposed to represent?”
I assume it has something to do with something racist. What does the white gravel represent?
“Derived from a bad premise.”
What bad premise would that be? The premise that things cost what they cost, whether we’re talking about loaves of bread or ordinance, and that sooner or later the bill will have to be paid for whatever goods were received? How is that premise flawed? How is that premise bad? Or are you counting on the possibility that, though the bill for this ill-starred experience eventually will come due, it’ll come due after your time, so that your luckless descendants will have find some means to pay it, while you chortle feom the distance of the Great Beyond?
Not honorable, Gonzman. Not honorable @ all.
And yes, the question of whether the Iraq War is justifiable is, in the end, a matter of opinion, because it can be nothing else. A large part of the reason for which is that many, if not most, of the Facts Re Iraq have, from the beginning of the Terror War venture, been either manufactured or missing. People who are denied reliable information must make up their minds without reliable information, since there isn’t any other choice, and you know what, Gonzman? I’ve decided to distrust the sons of guns who denied me the information in the first place, because that seems like the safest bet to me. Put that down to feminine whimsicality if you must.
As to shopping at WalMart…I live in the Pacific Northwest, where you can find big box stores galore, WalMarts particularly, though they’re anything but evenly deposited across the terrain. IOW, you’ll find that downscale rural communities like the Graham/Roy area are almost sure to have a WalMart apeice, while upscale rural/demirural communities like the ones located around Gig Harbor or over in Orting are almost sure not to.
Several years ago WalMart tried to get permission to build a big box store Gig Harbor and was refused, upon which the corporation’s functionaries made a huge stink, claiming mainly that the Gig Harbor local muckamucks, solid citizens all, Rotarians and the like, were being elitist in denying WalMart a place in their midst. They got radio guys from as far down the left coast as California (Southern California) to shill for their case, but in the end they failed to carry their point, for the very good reason that, though there are down-and-outers in Gig Harbor, the balance of the population over there is made up of comparatively well-heeled people who do not have to shop at WalMare, because they can afford to buy stuff at a venue which does not look like a jail. The charge of “elitism” is warranted, in a way: western Washington’s wealthier communities remain unbeWalMarted; the people who inhabit them have it in their power to spend their money elsewhere, since they’re not yet in such straits that rock-bottom pricing especially appeals to them in and of itself. You know, it’s almost impossible get too obfuscatory about this kind of stuff; people never can tell absolute untruths where money is concerned; sooner of later the observable dollars-and-cents facts of case will rebut them.
“You’d be surprised, I think, what we really talk about among ourselves.”
You’re kidding, right? Haven’t I just explained that I myself live out in the sticks and that I therefore have reason to know that rural people don’t make up some kind of separate species or supersecret lodge, but are rather, in point of painful truth, jes’ folks, nothing more, nothing less? There isn’t anything you’ve got to say that I haven’t heard or overheard before. And every time, I’m still indignant because every time, the guys who unwind your same tired & worn line continue to be wrong.
This is a major untruth… and I think you know it.</I.
And when Karen calls you on it, you shift ground to accuse her of trying to “Score points.”
Whatever.
What bad premise would that be?
Let’s see….
And yes, the question of whether the Iraq War is justifiable is, in the end, a matter of opinion,
Yeah, that would be it.
If it is a just war, then yes, the bill is worth it.
I’ve decided to distrust the sons of guns who denied me the information in the first place, because that seems like the safest bet to me. Put that down to feminine whimsicality if you must.
I’ve decided to distrust the Main Stream Media who has consistantly refused to provide that information to people, in order to push a meme that serves their ends, and knowing there would be people all to willing to believe what they were told (as it fits their own prejusdices) and not look it up.
Put that down to “Masculine Warmongering” if it suits you.
The charge of “elitism†is warranted, in a way: western Washington’s wealthier communities remain unbeWalMarted; the people who inhabit them have it in their power to spend their money elsewhere, since they’re not yet in such straits that rock-bottom pricing especially appeals to them in and of itself.
Whatever makes them happy.
I got my money the old fashioned way – long hours and sacrifice, and was damn thankful for Walmart in the days when things were tight. Maybe I never developed an aversion to Walmart.
Some things I can’t get there – so I go elesewhere. Other than that .. I see no reason to spend more money and go farther away just to “Not Shop at Walmart.”
“You’d be surprised, I think, what we really talk about among ourselves.â€
You’re kidding, right? Haven’t I just explained that I myself live out in the sticks and that I therefore have reason to know that rural people don’t make up some kind of separate species or supersecret lodge, but are rather, in point of painful truth, jes’ folks, nothing more, nothing less?
Mercy. Paranoid much?
We really talk about much the same thing as most people talk about. Arts. Music. Philosophy. Brag on our kids. Horse around.
Be surprised just how many people around here have college degrees. We just don’t tend to use a 98 cent word when a fifty cent one will do, don’t care for “indie” crap, and like our art to look like something. Or philosophy comes from a different set of values.
I’m sure you can find your white-trash, trailer trash rednecks, though. Go down to the trailer park. If you have trouble finding it, look for the “Obama ’08″ signs. They’re not as dumb as you think they are though – they know who wants to buy their vote with more handouts, and are willing to sell it.
Folks, is there any use in keeping this thread open? Anecdote exchanging isn’t helping move the discussion forward!
I distrust the main stream media too and am skeptical of other sources. Bias is very easy to spot, even when subtle. I don’t get this stuff about Walmart. I tend to shop where it is convenient and where I feel I get a good price. It may not be my favorite place to shop, but I don’t have an aversion to it. What I don’t like is what happens to the competition as I do try to support local businesses, but I see less and less diversity and that bothers me. Everywhere you go it’s the same thing–the corporatization of America and small towns and I see a lot of businesses closing, because they cannot compete. It’s a hostile environment for many small business owners and that bothers me.
“Be surprised just how many people around here have college degrees. We just don’t tend to use a 98 cent word when a fifty cent one will do, don’t care for “indie†crap, and like our art to look like something. Or philosophy comes from a different set of values.
I’m sure you can find your white-trash, trailer trash rednecks, though. Go down to the trailer park. If you have trouble finding it, look for the “Obama ‘08″ signs. They’re not as dumb as you think they are though – they know who wants to buy their vote with more handouts, and are willing to sell it.”
Gonzman, I don’t see how you can complain about liberals being elitist, and then say things like this. You’re merely demonstrating that this “I’m better than you” attitude exists equally among liberals and conservatives. How does preferring hard rock over indie have anything to do with the issues? And who else here besides you has even said anything about their music or art preferences? You’re building straw men all over the place.