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	<title>Comments on: One more Prop 8 post-mortem</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/</link>
	<description>Author, Speaker, Professor, Shattering Gender Myths</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 20:44:35 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Michigander</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16491</link>
		<dc:creator>Michigander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 05:25:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16491</guid>
		<description>Hector, you are correct that there was a pro-life initiative on the Michigan ballot-- proposal 2, which legalizes the use of stem cells derived from leftover embryos from fertility clinics. 

Fortunately for me and for many other chronically ill residents of Michigan, this initiative passed. It will be years before we see results, years that will see many of us beyond help. But all the information we have now says that stem-cell research has nearly limitless potential for treating Alzheimer&#039;s, Parkinson&#039;s, cancer, heart disease, and a lot of other illnesses. Proposal 2 gave me, and many people like me, hope. Maybe now I&#039;ll live to see my baby niece graduate from college. Maybe now I&#039;ll live to grow old with my partner. It&#039;s not a certainty, but it&#039;s the closest thing we&#039;ve got, and I thank God for that gift. 

If you really think defeating proposal 1 would have been the &quot;pro-life&quot; thing to do, then you are saying that my life and the lives of people like me are worth less than the frozen-in-stasis existence of a six-celled embryo abandoned in a fertility clinic. Rethink your usage of that term: pro-LIFE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hector, you are correct that there was a pro-life initiative on the Michigan ballot&#8211; proposal 2, which legalizes the use of stem cells derived from leftover embryos from fertility clinics. </p>
<p>Fortunately for me and for many other chronically ill residents of Michigan, this initiative passed. It will be years before we see results, years that will see many of us beyond help. But all the information we have now says that stem-cell research has nearly limitless potential for treating Alzheimer&#8217;s, Parkinson&#8217;s, cancer, heart disease, and a lot of other illnesses. Proposal 2 gave me, and many people like me, hope. Maybe now I&#8217;ll live to see my baby niece graduate from college. Maybe now I&#8217;ll live to grow old with my partner. It&#8217;s not a certainty, but it&#8217;s the closest thing we&#8217;ve got, and I thank God for that gift. </p>
<p>If you really think defeating proposal 1 would have been the &#8220;pro-life&#8221; thing to do, then you are saying that my life and the lives of people like me are worth less than the frozen-in-stasis existence of a six-celled embryo abandoned in a fertility clinic. Rethink your usage of that term: pro-LIFE.</p>
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		<title>By: Michigander</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16490</link>
		<dc:creator>Michigander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 05:13:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16490</guid>
		<description>Hector, you are correct that there was a pro-life initiative on the Michigan ballot</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hector, you are correct that there was a pro-life initiative on the Michigan ballot</p>
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		<title>By: Rainbow</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16489</link>
		<dc:creator>Rainbow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 23:35:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16489</guid>
		<description>I think many religious people react to the promotion of homosexuality in the schools.  These days gay unions are promoted as good or better than a man plus a woman who created their own children.  Much more trendy to be two rich gay men who buy eggs from a hormone-treated 20 year old female and then hire a womb to take all the discomfort and medical risks to bear the child for a few thousand dollars.  Let&#039;s eliminate mothers all together.  Let&#039;s just wreck female bodies without letting mothers keep the child.  Same thing with joint custody and lesbian couples.   Men/rich women can now have the children with one woman then have the new woman with the perfect body raise the kids.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think many religious people react to the promotion of homosexuality in the schools.  These days gay unions are promoted as good or better than a man plus a woman who created their own children.  Much more trendy to be two rich gay men who buy eggs from a hormone-treated 20 year old female and then hire a womb to take all the discomfort and medical risks to bear the child for a few thousand dollars.  Let&#8217;s eliminate mothers all together.  Let&#8217;s just wreck female bodies without letting mothers keep the child.  Same thing with joint custody and lesbian couples.   Men/rich women can now have the children with one woman then have the new woman with the perfect body raise the kids.</p>
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		<title>By: bmmg39</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16488</link>
		<dc:creator>bmmg39</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 19:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16488</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m solidly with Hector. I once phoned in to a local NPR program when the topic was &quot;issues voters.&quot; I explained that there is more than one type of issues voter; for example, I side with conservatives on the issue of embryo-destructive stem cell research, but I side with the liberals on gay marriage. There are also serious fears people have on &quot;assisted suicide&quot; measures, not even so much for the issue, itself, but because of the real possibiility that people who haven&#039;t expressed a yearning to die will nonetheless be put do death because they&#039;re &quot;obviously not of sound mind if they&#039;re saying they want to go on living in that condition.&quot; (It&#039;s happened.&quot; But, by all means, let&#039;s not worry about that, since apparently the nation will implode if two men in Oakland want to tie the knot...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m solidly with Hector. I once phoned in to a local NPR program when the topic was &#8220;issues voters.&#8221; I explained that there is more than one type of issues voter; for example, I side with conservatives on the issue of embryo-destructive stem cell research, but I side with the liberals on gay marriage. There are also serious fears people have on &#8220;assisted suicide&#8221; measures, not even so much for the issue, itself, but because of the real possibiility that people who haven&#8217;t expressed a yearning to die will nonetheless be put do death because they&#8217;re &#8220;obviously not of sound mind if they&#8217;re saying they want to go on living in that condition.&#8221; (It&#8217;s happened.&#8221; But, by all means, let&#8217;s not worry about that, since apparently the nation will implode if two men in Oakland want to tie the knot&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16487</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 05:24:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16487</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;what Iâ€™m concerned about protecting is sacramental marriage, not civil marriage&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Which, of course, is totally unaffected either way by ballot measures like Prop 8.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>what Iâ€™m concerned about protecting is sacramental marriage, not civil marriage</p></blockquote>
<p>Which, of course, is totally unaffected either way by ballot measures like Prop 8.</p>
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		<title>By: Hector</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16486</link>
		<dc:creator>Hector</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 01:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16486</guid>
		<description>SamChevre,

You have it precisely backward. Until and unless a solid majority of the people in a majority of U.S. states is pro-life, then having a change in the Supreme Court will be precisely meaningless. Overturning Roe v. Wade, while it would be nice, will just return it to the states. Will any of the states vote to place meaningful restrictions on abortion? Did South Dakota on Tuesday? The question answers itself.

If we can&#039;t get a pro-life initiative to pass in South Dakota, then exactly where can we get one?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SamChevre,</p>
<p>You have it precisely backward. Until and unless a solid majority of the people in a majority of U.S. states is pro-life, then having a change in the Supreme Court will be precisely meaningless. Overturning Roe v. Wade, while it would be nice, will just return it to the states. Will any of the states vote to place meaningful restrictions on abortion? Did South Dakota on Tuesday? The question answers itself.</p>
<p>If we can&#8217;t get a pro-life initiative to pass in South Dakota, then exactly where can we get one?</p>
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		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16485</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 23:05:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16485</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I wonder why the religious right fought the same-sex marriage ballot measure battles with so much more vigor than they did the various abortion related ballot measures on the ballots in different states.&lt;/i&gt;

Two big reasons:  first, it looked more winnable.  Second, until we get either some genuine radicals, or a change in the Supreme Court, any change in abortion law is like a band-aid on a femoral artery cut.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I wonder why the religious right fought the same-sex marriage ballot measure battles with so much more vigor than they did the various abortion related ballot measures on the ballots in different states.</i></p>
<p>Two big reasons:  first, it looked more winnable.  Second, until we get either some genuine radicals, or a change in the Supreme Court, any change in abortion law is like a band-aid on a femoral artery cut.</p>
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		<title>By: Hector</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16484</link>
		<dc:creator>Hector</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 19:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16484</guid>
		<description>Lynn Gazis-Sax,

The answer seems to be, because many &#039;conservative&#039; activists are bloody hypocrites who want to uphold Christian values when it comes to forbidding gays from getting maried, but do not want to abide by Christian values when it means THEIR family members being required to carry a pregnancy (or donating to charity, supporting economic justice, or protecting the environment.)

Perhaps that&#039;s uncharitable of me. While I morally disapprove of homosexual acts, I don&#039;t particularly care if the United States government decides to recognize homosexual marriages- what I&#039;m concerned about protecting is sacramental marriage, not civil marriage. I do care, very much, about abortion, and although I didn&#039;t vote for McCain I was hoping and praying that the pro-life initiatives in Michigan, Colorado, South Dakota and California would pass. They all failed, which makes me think that maybe the supposed pro-life sentiment in America is largely a big sham. It&#039;s truly sad that many social conservatives in America appear to care more about whether something is called &#039;civil union&#039; or &#039;civil marriage&#039; than about the protection of innocent human life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lynn Gazis-Sax,</p>
<p>The answer seems to be, because many &#8216;conservative&#8217; activists are bloody hypocrites who want to uphold Christian values when it comes to forbidding gays from getting maried, but do not want to abide by Christian values when it means THEIR family members being required to carry a pregnancy (or donating to charity, supporting economic justice, or protecting the environment.)</p>
<p>Perhaps that&#8217;s uncharitable of me. While I morally disapprove of homosexual acts, I don&#8217;t particularly care if the United States government decides to recognize homosexual marriages- what I&#8217;m concerned about protecting is sacramental marriage, not civil marriage. I do care, very much, about abortion, and although I didn&#8217;t vote for McCain I was hoping and praying that the pro-life initiatives in Michigan, Colorado, South Dakota and California would pass. They all failed, which makes me think that maybe the supposed pro-life sentiment in America is largely a big sham. It&#8217;s truly sad that many social conservatives in America appear to care more about whether something is called &#8216;civil union&#8217; or &#8216;civil marriage&#8217; than about the protection of innocent human life.</p>
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		<title>By: aphrael</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16483</link>
		<dc:creator>aphrael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 18:57:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16483</guid>
		<description>TPS12: I think there&#039;s something to what Hugo is saying, though --- mostly that the pro-gay-marriage side was to some degree complacent, believing that California is a liberal state and it couldn&#039;t happen here.

I&#039;m angry at the protestors, to some degree; if they&#039;d shown the activism a month ago that they&#039;re showing now, the result might have been different. But I acknowledge that to some degree this is unfair, and it is my pain speaking mroe than anything else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TPS12: I think there&#8217;s something to what Hugo is saying, though &#8212; mostly that the pro-gay-marriage side was to some degree complacent, believing that California is a liberal state and it couldn&#8217;t happen here.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m angry at the protestors, to some degree; if they&#8217;d shown the activism a month ago that they&#8217;re showing now, the result might have been different. But I acknowledge that to some degree this is unfair, and it is my pain speaking mroe than anything else.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynn Gazis-Sax</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16482</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn Gazis-Sax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 17:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/11/06/one-more-prop-8-post-mortem/#comment-16482</guid>
		<description>I wonder why the religious right fought the same-sex marriage ballot measure battles (and particularly Proposition 8) with so much more vigor than they did the various abortion related ballot measures on the ballots in different states.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder why the religious right fought the same-sex marriage ballot measure battles (and particularly Proposition <img src='http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif' alt='8)' class='wp-smiley' /> with so much more vigor than they did the various abortion related ballot measures on the ballots in different states.</p>
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