One of my former youth group kids came to talk to me last week after reading last week’s post about sexual identity. Louisa, 19 years old, has been “out†as a lesbian since she was in ninth grade, and has been with her girlfriend for two years now.
Louisa is in love with her gal. But lately, she finds herself questioning her self-identification as a lesbian. Though she describes having always hated the label “bisexual†for what she saw as its “wishy-washinessâ€, she talked about her growing curiosity about what it would be like to be (sexually, if not romantically) with a man. Louisa has never done more than simple kissing with a guy, and she finds herself wondering whether she ought to “try something†with a man just to find out what it’s like. She admits she’s been driving her girlfriend crazy with this hemming and hawing about having an experience with a fellow. But her curiosity, more so than her libido (though she’s savvy enough to know that those two are often enmeshed) is causing her to be, in her words, “mildly obsessed†with knowing what it’s like to be sexual with a man.
Louisa has taken my gay and lesbian studies class. She has read her Adrienne Rich; she knows about the reality (not just the theory) of growing up in a culture of “compulsory heterosexuality.†And she knows very well that if she were with a man, she might feel far less psychological pressure to experiment with a woman. “We don’t make straight women prove their straightness by having sex with girlsâ€, Louisa said, “so why do I feel so compelled to ‘prove’ I’m lesbian by trying something with a guy? It’s like I feel I have to earn my queer credentials.â€
Louisa, who has known me since she was 13, wanted one thing from our conversation last week, and it’s something I don’t know if I was able to give to her. She wanted help discerning whether this fascination with trying “it†(specifically, losing her heterosexual virginity) was something rooted in her own psyche or whether it was a response to the dominant cultural narrative. I pointed out the obvious — that for most of those, those two things (“natural†or “inherent†longings on the one hand and the socially-conditioned ones on the other) are incredibly difficult to separate. A lot of us spend a great deal of time working through this process of discernment; it’s one of the toughest tasks of young adulthood, and not a task everyone succeeds in completing. But the fact that it’s difficult doesn’t mean it can’t be done. Clearly, most of us believe that our internal “bundle of desires†has innate and cultural-constructed elements. For example, we might say that for someone like Louisa, an attraction to women is largely innate while her attraction to partners who have dark eyes and like anime is largely conditioned.
What I did point out to Louisa, arguing as I so often do from anecdote as well as more reliable evidence, is that I’ve rarely heard the same kind of question from young gay men. I certainly know young gay men who have slept with women, and I’ve known some men who were genuinely bisexual for sustained periods of time. But in more than two decades of teaching and volunteering around gay and lesbian issues, I’ve seen far more young women than men who question their queerness or seek to prove something by having other-sex sexual relationships. And it’s hard not to conclude, a la Rich and other lesbian writers over the past four decades, that sexism has at least as much to do with this “questioning†as the notion that women’s sexuality is invariably more “fluid†than men’s.
We live in a culture where even a young woman like Louisa, who grew up in a liberal, gay-friendly household, is exposed from an early age to “princess myths†and other cultural narratives that emphasize the absolutely central role that a relationship with a man plays in a woman’s happiness. Little lesbians see Disney movies too, after all! And while we teach little boys (straight and gay alike) to seek the approval and validation of other males (particularly through sports), we still teach little girls that romantic relationships with men (and, perhaps as a consequence, children) will be the greatest source of joy that they can ever know in their lives. In other words, a cultural double standard exists: for women, relationships with men are of central and even defining significance; for men, relationships (non-sexual) with men also are of defining importance.
Joking with Louisa, I said “You need to work past the myth of male indispensabilityâ€. She laughed. (As much at me as with me. After all these years of youth group and then PCC classes with me, Louisa knows my often-repetitive tropes as well as anyone.) But after laughing, she said something like:
Yeah, it’s crazy how central men are to my thinking. I’m so in love with my girlfriend. I’m so attracted to her. I don’t feel like something’s missing because a penis isn’t involved in our relationship. But you know, I still feel like there’s something almost incomplete, maybe even immature, about being with another woman. Somehow I have the fucked-up idea that lesbian relationships are just supposed to be a developmental phase, and when I grow up, I’m just ‘supposed’ to find a man and fall in love with him. And I also have this whack thought that no matter what I do with a woman, I’m still a virgin and thus not an adult if I don’t ever have a dick inside me.
I don’t think this is a phase for me; I’ve known since I was a kid I was more interested in girls than boys. It’s not that I am secretly so attracted to men that I want to be with one more than my women. But I just feel this nagging sense that somehow men are ‘indispensable’ and I don’t know how to get over it without trying something with a guy.
(This is my best approximation of what Louisa said, augmented by some comments she made in an email to me.)
I’ve heard from others, besides Louisa, about this sense that for a woman, losing one’s virginity requires being penetrated by a human penis, and that nothing a female partner can do is comparable. I note that I don’t hear that same idea from my gay male friends, a few of whom are indeed “forty-year old virgins†in the heterosexual sense, having never had intercourse with a woman. To generalize dangerously, they don’t seem nearly as preoccupied with the absence of heterosexual sexual experience. To be fair, I know that many lesbians don’t go through what Louisa is going through, and don’t feel as if they are struggling against the myth of male sexual indispensability. But Louisa’s not the only woman I’ve taught/mentored who has spoken about this exasperating grip that a culture of compulsory heterosexuality still has, even on some in a generation of young queer women born years after that happy phrase was first coined.
The point of this post, I suppose, is to recognize the need for good mentoring in the lives of gay and lesbian adolescents. One specific thing mentors can do for young folks in the queer community is create safe space to question the myths about homosexuality as somehow immature or incomplete. For those young people like Louisa, who feel both an external and an internal pressure to prove something to themselves and the world by having a heterosexual experience or relationship, we need to provide materials and resources and counseling that addresses our cultural myths about heterosexuality and happiness head on. We need to challenge the narrative of male indispensability, and not just on behalf of young lesbians who worry that without a penis inside them, they will never become full adults. Above all else, we need to challenge the entire narrative that suggests that real fulfillment, particularly for women, can only come in an intimate relationship with those whose physiology is reproductively complementary.
This doesn’t mean we should discourage exploration (my experiences with the be-penised and the be-wombed, while not vital to my growth, were certainly interesting, pleasurable, and informative.) But it does mean that we should be doing everything we can to deconstruct the hierarchy that privileges opposite-sex sexual experience as a better marker of growth, maturity, and self-awareness.
perhaps she could also talk to older lesbian and bi women who have experienced similar things.
I mean, most lesbians I know (including myself) have been with a man at some point usually to “try” to be straight in some way (rather than proving that we actually were gay–two sides of the same coin, I suppose). And many of us regret that we ever felt the need to do that.
There is nothing more real about sex with a male penis than with a female vagina. Sex is a language two people speak to each other and it can be communicated in as many different ways as there are people and all are equally valid.
On the other hand, I totally believe that the “bi” label needs to be reclaimed in a positive light and if you are bi, you are and there is no shame in that either.
My first thought though was, if she is in a closed relationship it is kind of a null point right now anyway.
I’ve never had this issue, but I’ve known a few young lesbians who have. They all outgrew it pretty quickly upon having a serious girlfriend, though. I’ve heard people claim (very, very ignorantly) that women don’t experience internalized homophobia to the degree that men do — this stupid trope blows that assertion right out of the water. (The internalized homophobia is qualitatively different, but not less severe.)
If Louisa is really being eaten up by this, she’ll probably end up doing some sexual experimentation with men. And so much the better; appropriate exploration is in invaluable way to learn. Based on this post, I think it’s a safe bet she’ll learn she’s gay. (That’s what’s happened to 100% of the young lesbians I know who’ve struggled with this.) Some people, gay, straight, bi, and otherwise, need to experiment to be sure; they should do so. That can be a big challenge for young people (and older folks, too) in monogamous relationships — it’s hard to balance one’s need to experiment with one’s partner’s needs.
If she were straight and “curious” what would your response be?
I mean seriously – I see all the time people who grow up, identify as straight, and then discover some heretofore latent attractions and become seemingly become bi – or gay – almost overnight. Why NOT the other way?
Let’s say she indulges her curiousity and fast forward ten years and she is happily married to a man and has two kids and one on the way – what is wrong with that?
Also: I had sexual experiences with boys before I knew I was gay, so I suppose that’s why this never happened to me. For me, being with guys wasn’t gross or bad, particularly — just kind of boring. My first kiss with a girl was electrifying. I knew immediately that that was what I meant to be doing, what my sexuality was for. I was able to know this in part because of my total lack of a response in my earlier, heterosexual encounters. So, I don’t mean to downplay the value of that knowledge.
Gonzman, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. If her interest in men is authentic, great — let her go be with men. That’s different from her feeling a social pressure to be with a man because that’s “real sex” and lesbian sex is somehow juvenile. The former is self-discovery; the latter is bigotry.
I have no idea why you threw in the “two kids and one on the way” bit. Her desire for children is probably independent of her orientation. I’m a lesbian; I want a bunch of kids someday. I’m quite sure I’d still feel that way if I were straight. Similarly, I’ve met lots of straight folks who are childless by choice. I don’t think they’d have kids if they were queer. Parenthood and sexual orientation and independent variables.
Gonzman, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. If her interest in men is authentic, great — let her go be with men. That’s different from her feeling a social pressure to be with a man because that’s “real sex†and lesbian sex is somehow juvenile. The former is self-discovery; the latter is bigotry.
I ask because I read an undertone of the good Doctor feeling some need to talk her out of it.
She’s curious. If she were straight with a boyfriend talking about being curious about being with a woman, I suspect the blog would be substantially different.
Question about your “let her go be with men” aside – may be nothing, but I know of several formerly exclusively gay women (Let’s use the term LUG since it fits, as is a common enough phenom to have achieved jargon status) who do have some regrets at being treated as a pariah by their formerly gay friends. Might she likewise be feeling similar pressure from the other direction? I ask because I read the comment as having an excommunicative tone.
I have no idea why you threw in the “two kids and one on the way†bit. Her desire for children is probably independent of her orientation. I’m a lesbian; I want a bunch of kids someday. I’m quite sure I’d still feel that way if I were straight. Similarly, I’ve met lots of straight folks who are childless by choice. I don’t think they’d have kids if they were queer. Parenthood and sexual orientation and independent variables.
Strictly based on a datum I read once that by the time a woman bears three children by a man, the chances of her seeking a divorce drop substantially; thrown in strictly to underline “Not merely married, but much more likely to be in it for the long haul.”
Daisy nails it, which is why I think Louisa needs to spend a lot more time processing what the motivating factors are that draw her towards men. She’s trying to parse out social pressure and authentic identity, no easy thing to do. And she does have a serious and very good relationship to which she intends to remain faithful, but she continues to be nagged by this voice that says “I need to find out what this is all about.” Curiosity combined with internalized homophobia explains a lot of it, and I think Daisy is spot on about the fact that internalized homophobia can exist even in progressive young people raised by very tolerant families. And there’s no way to estimate just how powerful that social influence can be.
Hugo, I told you LUISA not LOUISA! You always take Spanish names and make them French, don’t you?
Anyway, thanks for this. I think you captured a lot of what we talked about.
I do want to stress, though, that I don’t have a problem with bisexuals. I know some people who are genuinely bi, and I accept that. My comment about wishy-washiness was in regard to myself only, not to what other people may choose. I don’t think it accuratey identifies me. I’ve never really lusted after, or fantasized about boys. At least not real ones. In literature, it’s a different tale to tell! Point being that I am in love, I am in love with a woman and attracted to her. There is no specific man I have in mind to do the deed with. I’m just really tormented by this indefensible (to me anyway) sense that I need to be with a man just to see what it’s all about.
I haven’t decided about kids. I’m freaking nineteen! We talk about adopting someday or doing something else like perhaps artificial insemination, but only many years from now. Contrary to stereotype, most of my straight women friends aren’t baby-lusting at our age, anyway. My desire to find out about a man has nothing to do with what Huges calls “complementary reproductivity” in the sense of wanting to make a baby.
And Daisy, I’m very sensitive about the term “internalized homophobia.” I wish there was another phrase we could adopt that sums up this plight of just feeling like I would be more complete if I had done what you did, which was to be with guys before you knew you were gay. I have kissed boys, tho not since I ws 12, and it was really so disappointing. But I was barely aware at that age anyway.
This is a totally disorganized rant on your blog, Huges, and I’m sorry. Thanks again!
“Luisa”, not Louisa
Gonzman:
Question about your “let her go be with men†aside – may be nothing, but I know of several formerly exclusively gay women (Let’s use the term LUG since it fits, as is a common enough phenom to have achieved jargon status) who do have some regrets at being treated as a pariah by their formerly gay friends. Might she likewise be feeling similar pressure from the other direction? I ask because I read the comment as having an excommunicative tone.
I’m not in favor of treating anybody like a pariah, nor am I trying to excommunicate anybody. But, the LGBT community is an identity-based community. Straight-identified cissexual people are, by definition, not members. I would never stop being somebody’s friend because of a change in identity, but I wouldn’t invite a straight-identified person to lesbian book club. That’s how identity groups work. It’s not malicious. As a parallel: say I met someone at Torah study and we became friends largely by celebrating Jewish holidays together and discussing Judaism. One day she converts to Christianity. I wouldn’t have anything against her as a person; I also wouldn’t invite her to synagogue anymore. And our relationship might deteriorate if it were based on something we once had in common but no longer did. On other hand, if our shared religion were merely incidental to our friendship, it would continue relatively unaffected.
I think it’s wrong for people to ostracize friends who’ve had a change in identity (whether that’s a change to straight identity or to an LGBT identity). I also think it’s foolish for people who’ve had a change in identity to expect to still be allowed into X-only spaces despite their change.
Strictly based on a datum I read once that by the time a woman bears three children by a man, the chances of her seeking a divorce drop substantially; thrown in strictly to underline “Not merely married, but much more likely to be in it for the long haul.â€
Oh, okay. Very well.
Hi Luisa!
I’m just really tormented by this indefensible (to me anyway) sense that I need to be with a man just to see what it’s all about.
I don’t think curiosity is indefensible. Phallocentrism and heteronormativity are. Curiosity, though, is universal. It may not be possible to completely separate the two, but don’t be too hard on yourself.
I’m nineteen too, by the way. : )
And Daisy, I’m very sensitive about the term “internalized homophobia.†I wish there was another phrase we could adopt that sums up this plight of just feeling like I would be more complete if I had done what you did, which was to be with guys before you knew you were gay. I have kissed boys, tho not since I ws 12, and it was really so disappointing. But I was barely aware at that age anyway.
I apologize if my use of the phrase upset you. I won’t use it again.
As I said in an earlier comment, people can learn a lot through that kind of experimentation. At the same time, I did that because I had no idea what my real feelings were. I’ve often wished someone who have just told me (it was obvious to everyone else!) — I could have saved myself a lot of confusion and sadness, not to mention sparing several other people. So that path comes with its own costs, too.
Anyway, as Hugo’s recent post made clear, a lot of heterosexual and homosexual people have some attractions to or experiences with the gender they’re not primarily oriented to. Social pressures aside, I think your curiosity is really pretty common, for people of all genders and orientations. I wish you the best of luck with your struggles about this!
Sorry, “Luisa”. This habit I have of making up pseudonyms for students means that I often get confused about the names — but since I asked you what name you wanted, I ought to have asked how to spell it!
Daisy, you use two vital words here I ought to have employed in the post: “phallocentrism” and “heteronormativity”, which sum up much of the problem. And I appreciate your gentle reminder that there is a cost to exploration and experimentation. In and of itself, that’s not an argument against “trying things out” (and you and I both did, which Luisa hasn’t). But it is a reminder that very real people get hurt sometimes along the way.
Thoughtful post and replies – yes, in a society in which a woman is deemed to be ‘incomplete’ which penetrative intercourse it can be difficult to sort out what is geninue exloration vs. pressure to live up to an expectation. At the risk of lowering the tone, there are other ways to experience the phallus than a real live penis – various shops sell very realistic and accurate representations of the phallus so exploration can be done without involving a man! (and no risk of STD’s! excellent!)
I.e., your hypothetical situation for her would be:
and she would want to know to what degree that was due to a genuine uncertainty about her orientation, and to what extent it was due to society’s prejudices regarding what constitutes a valid relationship.
There are a couple of other issues that this raises – Luisa’s relationship with her partner, and ‘experimentation’ involving another person. Luisa, not to suggest that these things haven’t occurred to you in any way, but a caution; at your age I cheerfully accepted the conventional wisdom that men are perfectly fine with, and pretty much only interested in, no-strings-attached sex and you can have a fling without hurting them. Turned out to be utter bullshit.
Additionally, there will be some guys who have issues with your lesbian identity if they are aware of it. That can range from feeling used (see above) to feeling that they’ve ‘converted’ you or that you’re not really a lesbian anymore because you’ve submitted to the Power of the Cock. Just a warning.
If you’re not in an open relationship with your partner you’re also gonna have to step very carefully with that.
Good points both, Mythago. I learned exactly that same lesson about men in my teenage experimentation, when I was exactly Luisa’s age (and Daisy’s). Other people are not yardsticks to measure our identities with, at least we shouldn’t treat them as that and nothing more.
A friend of mine just posted this study on Facebook which shows that lesbian young women are much more likely to get pregant then there peers – because of pressure to prove heterosexuality.
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/westcoastnews/story.html?id=1db42e04-c2a2-450f-89c9-f8bb2de7661d
I.e., your hypothetical situation for her would be:
No, it would be what it is – a never quite silent voice in her head which was saying, “Wonder what it would be like to…?”
I make no attempts to mind read, and make no attempt to either affirm or deny any arguments, either internal or external.
Gonzman, we don’t have to attempt mind-reading — we have her here, in her own words. And what she said was not “I have this nagging voice just wondering what it would be like to sleep with a man.” What she said was:
Somehow I have the fucked-up idea that lesbian relationships are just supposed to be a developmental phase, and when I grow up, I’m just ‘supposed’ to find a man and fall in love with him.
Those two things are not the same. Whatever the role of Luisa’s sexual orientation here, it’s clear (because she said so) that she is responding to social pressures and external ideas about what she’s “supposed” to do. Struggling with what one is “supposed” to do is not the same as struggling with one’s own desires.
So, yeah, the analogy to the quoted paragraph is not “Hmm, I wonder what it would be like to be with a woman” — that’s not actually analogous. An analogous situation would be one in which a straight woman, who had always felt more attracted to men, and was in a great relationship with a guy, was was tormented by an unbidden sense that she was “supposed” to fall in love with a woman, and that she wouldn’t actually be an adult until she’d had sex with a woman. Oh, and she’s never felt attracted to any actual male person.
Honestly, if someone, somehow, came to Hugo with that problem, I’m pretty sure his response would be quite similar to this one.
If you’re not attempting to mind-read, how is it that you know that little voice will be “never quite silent”? Perhaps Luisa will always wonder. Perhaps it’s a passing fancy that she’ll get over. Perhaps it’s the kind of thing she may idly wonder about, the way many of us wonder what it would have been like if we’d become astronauts or cowboys (but have no real regrets or wish to call NASA or head out to a ranch).
How do I know it won’t be? I don’t. Apparently – as Hugo describes it as a “mild obsession” -if I erred in describing the here and now, I erred in understatement.
I also don’t know that it won’t quiet down, either. This could be a passing thing, and it could also grow and interfere with her relationship now and screw up any future ones.
I am not giving advice – but it seems to me that as she voices her “I’m thinking it could be this” a lot of people are damn eager to say, “Yeah, that’s it, it’s just a passing phase, you’ll grow out of it” where if someone were to say that to a heretofore straight girl wondering about her fantasy to be with a woman they’d be outraged.
Yeah, I know. It’s “different.”
Okay, Gonzman, now you’ve pissed me off. I wanted Hugo to blog about this because I wanted some more feedback (and my own LJ is set to private, and is going to stay that way), so I guess I’ve asked for this. Still, I think that Daisy Bond and Mythago and Huges are assessing the situation pretty well, esp. since all but Hugo don’t know me any better than you do.
HOnest to Jeebus, I’m a Kinsey 5.5, almost as strongly interested in women and women only as a person could be. It’s not that I think being with a man is going to be amazingly hot. It is that I am obsessive and think a lot (double pisces), and I’m trying to distinguysh between what is socially conditioned heterosexuality and what is really what I, “Luisa” want. If the sitch were reversed then Hugo would probably be just as understanding, but he would almost positively point out a diffeence. We don’t have a social structure that conditions people to preference homosexuality. We do have one that conditions people towards heterosexuality. And Gonzman, doesn’t it makes sense that someone in the opposite position is probably more likely to have genuine feelings for the same sex than I am for the oppposite? Does that make sense?
Please try and remember you are talking about a real person here, with a “nom de plume” but a real person.
Nobody has said that. Except you, because you’re so eager to construct the Hypocritical Gay Strawman that you aren’t particularly interested in what’s actually been said. The only person who’s been suggesting that Luisa is in some kind of a phase is you – with your hints about LUGs who sleep with men and happily end up married and pregnant.
We do not live in a world where people joke about HUGs, or where the overwhelming majority view is that heterosexuality is ‘just a phase’ you’ll grow out of and adult women all have sex with other women.
But you’ve made your views on gays and lesbians pretty clear more than once over at Glenn’s. I’m just surprised you thought the Mr. Evenhanded pretense would be successful.
It’s nice to have a post where it’s not a hypothetical person, but a real person, as Luisa has pointed out. It makes it that much easier for her and others to point out the biases of certain posters and how they are distorting her words and feelings to suit their own opinions. If it was a hypothetical student, or someone not actively involved here, it would be that much easier for Gonzman to derail the discussion.
So thanks Luisa, for participating and for jumping in to clarify your point of view.
Thank you, Emily! I am very real. I can’t guarantee that everyone of the people that Hugo has ever blogged about has been as real as I, but I am not a composite of his imagination!