In a comment below yesterday’s brief post which quoted from a new sci-fi anthology, Luisa wrote:
A lot of sexually confident young women are attracted to nerdy, geeky guys, particularly if they’ve got that “nerdy in a hot way†thing going. I’m in a relationship with a woman, but sometimes get crushes on this sort of guy myself! Does the sexual confidence differential that favors the student somehow compensate for the academic power differential in this case?
And Hector chimed in:
It’s true that people vary a lot in their sexual confidence as well as in other, more visible axes of distinction like age, wealth, or power. Sometimes I feel like Hugo is unable to grasp that there are some of us, men and women, who have very little sexual confidence, regardless of how much ‘power’ we might have in other regards.
I need to repost something I wrote nearly five years ago: Loving the Bookish and the Cool, in which I made it quite clear that I was hardly a model of masculine confidence as a youngster:
I was an introverted, clumsy, bookish, unathletic, slightly chubby teen boy. I was teased and harassed throughout my elementary and junior high school years. I found solace in two places: books and the theater. I spent years working with a community theater group as a kid, and it was in drama that I first found “folks like me†who felt like misfits. Most of my good friends were girls — and boys who were on their way out of the closet! I was not remotely good-looking. I had unrequited crushes on several of my female friends, who thought I was “nice, but…†I had only one straight male friend in high school, and even that was often a tense and ambivalent relationship… I think my bona fides as a certifiable geek are in place!
Much as changed in the quarter century since I began to emerge from awkward adolescence, but it’s not as if I’ve completely forgotten what it was like to be paralyzed by self-doubt. And whatever later “success” I enjoyed with women did not erase the memories of what it was to feel undesirable, inarticulate, and at a complete loss as to how to negotiate romantic and sexual terrain.
One thing I learned: it was not anyone else’s job to do for me what I felt unable to do for myself. To put it another way, my geekiness wasn’t a woman’s problem to solve. It is true that my first girlfriend in high school asked me out (I was too scared to make that first move). I was a virgin, she wasn’t. But I learned quickly that fear is not a justification for passivity. While I had no reason to be ashamed of my shyness, I did have an obligation to learn to be more assertive. And among other things, I also learned that whatever frustration I had felt as a consequence of feeling unattractive and geeky and unwanted was not my girlfriend’s pack to carry. I remember feeling those brief flashes of anger, flashes which I think are quite common among those who end up as men’s rights activists, when I thought about my years of feeling unattractive and unwanted. And my first lover was blessedly assertive enough to make it abundantly clear that while I was entitled to my feelings, I was not entitled — ever — to be desired by others. I wasn’t owed the feeling of being wanted, nor was I owed any particular deference because of my fears and inexperience.
You see, my first girlfriend was the first person to make me feel wanted — and as a result of our intimacy, she was also the first to be burdened by my pent-up resentments, some of which were directed towards those girls whom I had longed to approach but couldn’t throughout my early-to-mid adolescence. I was, however briefly (thank goodness) that fabled Nice Guy(tm), the sort who seethes with pent-up fury at the women who fail to appreciate his sensitivity, his generosity, his chivalry and his clear superiority to the edgy jocks and bad boys who seem to get laid so much more often. I grew out of that phase for several reasons, not least because I figured out how fundamentally fraudulent it was to take all of that self-doubt and turn it into anger at women. I’m grateful to a series of feminist friends and lovers, who made it damn clear to me that however painful my geekiness and perceived undesirability were, it wasn’t somehow women’s fault that I hadn’t received plenty of validation and sex earlier in life!
In a culture in which not an insignificant number of men are unpleasantly and obviously predatory, the sweetly shy and geeky lad seems a welcome relief. Obviously, some of these also turn out to be wolves in sheep’s clothing; some are angry Nice Guys(tm), trembling with slut-shaming rage at the women who have failed to appreciate their charms and their, well, Niceness. But many other young men are what they at first appear to be — perhaps socially awkward, but genuinely gentle. It’s certainly not surprising that some women would be attracted to these sorts of fellas, nor is it surprising that at least in some instances, those women will be forced to “make the first move.” Nothing wrong with that. But — and this is an important but — the whole point of relationships is to serve as vehicles for our mutual growth and transformation. Some folks are naturally more shy than others, and not every “I” is destined to turn into an “E” on the Myers-Briggs scale. But shyness is not an excuse for a prolonged refusal to take the initiative in relationships; geekiness is not an excuse for forcing one’s partner always to take on the role of the aggressor. Those who cope with anxiety by trying to assert control need relationships where they can learn to let go; those who cope with anxiety by withdrawing into a state of passive expectation need to learn to step up. That’s the whole bloody point of dating.
I disagree with you a bit – I do think that if one’s partner is significantly less experienced, one owes that person a little extra care.
I agree — but that needs to be temporary, mythago. For how long do you accomodate? Two weeks? Two months? Two years?
Hugo,
I think Luisa was asking whether lack of sexual experience on the part of the older partner in a relationship can balance out some of the age/power/wealth differential. Luisa, if you’re still reading, my opinion is “Damn straight it does.”
I’m struggling with it from the other side, being female.
I’m in my early 30s with almost no experience, sexually or romantically (my last kiss was 10 years ago), and in fact, you can it’s even worse, because the only experience I have is of devastating sexual abuse by too many people I trusted.
I sometimes find myself emotionally identifying with those MRAs because I am so bitter that I never had any love or romance in my life – it’s really hard for me to accept that I am the one who needs to change.
It just makes me angry and frustrated to feel that I have to change, I have to come out of my shell. If we’re all intrinsically lovable, shouldn’t someone love us just by the virtue of being? That’s how I feel, and I bet a lot of shy men feel the same way too.
By the way, I only came across your blog a few weeks ago, and probably read a 100 posts already. You have amazing insights, and one can see that you have been through a lot and overcame.
The reason
There’s nothing at all better about being an extrovert than an introvert — there’s no reason for any “I” to become an “E.” Introversion is not related to any lack of self-confidence, or even to shyness.
I definitely agree that’s unfair and damaging for one person to allow all the burdens of initiation to fall on her partner, but I don’t think that’s a shyness thing, either. I’m very shy, but when my not especially shy girlfriend and I have had this problem, it’s been in the other direction.
This strikes a chord with me, partly because, like Naomi1978, I’m an incredibly shy 22-year-old woman with a tentative diagnosis of Avoidant Personality Disorder. I’m constantly frustrated by the dating world, partly because the last time I worked up the courage to express interest, the boy in question said he’d interested in dating me if I were only sexually active. Since I was a virgin and uncomfortable with changing that, he said we should stay “just friends”. It’s made me especially nervous about ever expressing interest, because my fear of rejection is so intense. It feels like I can’t even try because I’ll just lose.
On the other hand, I’m a geek. The boys I get crushes on are introverted and shy; the boys who crush on me when I don’t reciprocate are also introverted and shy. What taught me the most about what would be ethical in my situation, to people for whom I have feelings, is the experience of what people did to me. One boy in my social group has been following me for years, giving me unnecessary gifts, runniing errands or being helpful far more than is normal, and showing all the signs of being a Nice Guy with a crush, hoping someday I’ll reciprocate his feelings. I feel profoundly uncomfortable whenever I’m around him, because it feels like I have to treat him like fine china, and any wrong move on my part could break his heart. He’s never made any overt move towards me, so it feels awkward to raise the question just to reject him. His passivity makes his entire happiness in this question my responsibility in a way it never would be if I had a clear chance to say I never felt anything for him romantically.
So I agree, Hugo, that even if speaking up is scary, uncomfortable, or painful, if you really feel any kind of love for the other person, you don’t want to impose an extra burden on them. They owe you the kindness to deal with you fairly and honestly, but that’s it. Only you can carry your own problems, and not even in a good relationship can you dump it all on anybody else.
Thank you for your reply, Huges! I wish you would more explicitly address the issue of power differentials, but I do apprciate the post. Like Daisy, I’m usually quite shy as you know, until I get to know someone, in which case I am notoriously difficlt to shut up!
I’ve wondered about how many “geek guys” are really very angry at being rejected. I think of how angry I’ve been in my life at being sexualized by men when I didn’t want it – how do you think that stands in comparison to being sexually invisble to women, the way some geek guys are? (or feel.) Stop me if I’m getting into the suffering Olympics thing you dislike so much!
I actually think that some of the older man/younger woman societal dynamic can be traced to men who are late bloomers and want to prove something to themselves and others. He was a shy “geek” back then. Maybe he felt rejected in college. Now he’s an Oracle database guru and he going to show everyone who he can date with his new found confidence, 7 series BMW, downtown condo, and six figure salary.
davev, it’s unfortunate but I do know guys like that. They’re not bad people but some of their brain does seem to be stuck in “NOW, I can date those hot co-ed babes who I couldn’t hook up with when I was their age!”
Hugo, maybe we’re talking past each other; of course the less-experienced partner doesn’t get to demand “No, you do everything” during the whole relationship, but certainly in considering whether to start a relationship in the first place, and how to proceed, you’re going to approach things differently if your partner is shy, geeky and inexperienced than if they’re worldly and extroverted.
Re: davev, it’s unfortunate but I do know guys like that. They’re not bad people but some of their brain does seem to be stuck in “NOW, I can date those hot co-ed babes who I couldn’t hook up with when I was their age!â€
Mythago,
As long as they aren’t dating their students or their labor force or other subordinates, why does it matter? Perhaps it makes you feel good to look down on men like that, and be my guest. But I fail to see anything intrinsically immoral about it.
It matters to the extent that they have an unrealistic image of themselves, and are oblivious to the women they want as people with their own interests and desires. “I want” is not the same as “I am owed”. And the guy who thinks he deserves or has somehow earned his Hot Young Babe is not making any allowances in his mind for whether she might reciprocate that interest.
Fortunately, my friends do not have this sense of arrogant entitlement; but when I was a younger woman, I did in fact run into older men who thought of me (not me, as a person, but women in my age group) as some kind of entitlement. And they got very, very angry on learning that we young women did not find them as attractive as they found us.
By the way, Hector, you have a nasty habit of pouting and insisting everybody is laughing at you behind your back. Really, it’s not all about you. I don’t know how many times I can say that I really couldn’t care less who you eventually marry; I just can’t help rolling my eyes when you present your own wishes for the future as God And Nature’s Plan For Humanity.
There is also a side issue in entitlement, I guess, because you have to address the issue of geekiness being “uncool” in our culture, and the fact that extroverted, unattractive men experience their sexual invisibility as a source of anger, due to the sex-role burdens of always being the initator in the het sex paradigm. (One of the more perceptive blogs, Figleaf’s Real Adult Sex, talks about this sexual invisibility as a function of the burdens masculinity places on men, while men situate it in female expectations.) This is usually dismissed by feminists as “Nice Guy” syndrome or “entitlement”, which is a little too facile.
I always hear echos of Augustine’s “…but not yet, Lord” in Hugo’s views on Nice Guy-ism, and I’m glad to hear he’s solved his problem. I would like to have had that sort of past with women too, to feel that I was choosing from a position of atractiveness and abundance of choice, however much chaos it might potentially cause. (And whatever the particular ethical challenges of such a position, which have been discussed at length on this blog.) And I would point out to mythago that our society is spectacularly bad at preparing men for working through their emotions regarding their sexual desirability, precisely because (cf. figleaf) there really is no social space for men to be desired.
Eurosabra.
Please define “no social space for men to be desired”.
I know of several men who, when young, were dodging girls. An embarrasment of riches, so to speak.
Is that related to your point?
I’ve been lurking on this blog for a couple of weeks and appreciate the thoughtful posts. I too am interested in the power dynamic question, and I haven’t come to a conclusion for myself yet, but I’m tempted to say that in the assertive student/passive professor model the power dynamic is not balanced out.
Mostly because traditionally in sexist society the only real power a woman has in any given relationship with a man is sexual — her body. So while a woman being assertive and going after what she wants sexually is a definite step up from the past, to me it doesn’t erase the disparity in professional power between a student and a professor, or an employee and a supervisor, no matter the differences in sexual confidence. The two issues should be looked at separately, in my mind.
Eurosabra, you raise a good point about the burden of being the initiator; the problem is when that anger manifests itself as entitlement or blame. The social expectations about men initiating can’t be separated from the social expectations that women refrain from initiating. However, I don’t think that’s the same thing as entitlement.
You’re also right that men aren’t taught how to deal with these emotions or to see emotions other than anger and jealousy as appropriate for a man to have. Problem is when the burden of dealing with those emotions is placed on women; we aren’t exactly taught to say “Figure out your own goddamn issues”.
Right, but the majority discourse tends to concentrate on the men who do not feel that female desire is directed at them, and it exists in the context of a wider discourse that prohibits women from initiating. It’s always what some other girl is doing with some other guy.
As for the entitlement issue, I don’t think many men like the realization that their emotions place them on a certain continuum of rape culture. And many apprehend the limitations placed on them in the scenario you described–high-status achiever male facing rejection–as a desexualization.
Hey, we can’t be agreeing with each other! This is a blog!
Great post, really. Favorite line: it was not anyone else’s job to do for me what I felt unable to do for myself. Yes!
I still labor under my shyness sometimes. When I’m with friends I am often so outgoing that people are surprised to see me in other situations, but when I am alone, I am terribly shy. After being told that people either thought I was “unfriendly” or “stuck up — before they got to know me” several times in my teens, I realized that yeah, it was my job to work on it. No one can be counted on to draw you out. You don’t have to, say, approach people, but neither can you give one word answers when people do (if you want to keep talking to them, anyway).
I’m much less shy now than I was in my teens or even my early twenties, but I had to do a lot of work to get here.
I was one of those painfully shy geek adolescents, but had an awakening one day while taking the bus to school. Some of the cool grrrls were on the bus talking and, gasp!, laughing and that was triggering my feelings of inadequacy until I realized, they weren’t laughing at or talking about me. In fact they quite likely weren’t even aware of my presence and to think otherwise was quite conceited.
As soon as I realized that my shyness was rooted in the conceit that it was all about me, I had to just let it go.
I am still not as assertive as I feel I ought to be, but I don’t kid myself that it is anyone elses problem anymore and I know women are generally kind, tend to find me attractive and that, if I want to, I can express interest without paralyzing fear of ridicule.
I think both men and women have a tendency to see the opposite sex (for straight people, anyway) as the ones holding all the marbles–probably because the pursuit of a romantic relationship makes us feel vulnerable in a way that few other things do.
In my experience, in junior high and high school, it was mostly the girls who did the initiating. By “initiating” I don’t necessarily mean asking the guy out, but initiating conversation and showing obvious interest to the point that it was hardly any risk for the guy to ask the girl out–it was obvious she would say “yes.” I think it was a combination of girls being socialized to be more, well, social and the fact that girls usually mature a little earlier than boys. I think this difference may have become even more pronounced in recent years. For example, a first-grader girl once called my second-grader nephew “hot”! When asked what she meant, she said, “He has everything you want.” (Hard to say whether it was his belching loudly on purpose or his armpit farts that attracted her.)
Clearly, ‘geek’ means something entirely different in American.
Naomi1978,
I know exactly how you feel. I’m the same: I’m 30 and I have had little sexual experience except for what was, in fact, sexual abuse. I’m rather shy and I don’t trust people easily.
But I don’t think it makes me terminally avoidant. I have been interested in various men over the years, and I’ve definitely signalled my interest in them in ways that could not be mistaken. However, I wasn’t ready to start a physical relationship. For that, I would have needed a few months of friendship first. They weren’t so patient, and those who didn’t find a girlfriend to replace me turned increasingly resentful and passive-aggressive, to the point that I was the one who didn’t want to have anything to do with them anymore.
And it’s OK to need time. It’s OK to need to trust a partner, especially when you know you’re going to have to tell him a horrible story about yourself.
I just hope that one day I’ll meet a man who likes me enough to be patient with me.
*hugs*
(Hugo, long time lurker, first time commenter – sorry to be highjacking the thread like that, but I had to say this to Naomi)
Telling shy people to become bold extroverts is not particularly helpful.
You wouldn’t tell an extrovert to become shy and reflective – and he/she wouldn’t be able to even if you made them, because that’s who they are.
Also, with the whole male/female dynamic, shyness basically does not matter for women, because some guy will approach them sooner or later (often it will be the “wrong” guy, since the assertive types – not to mention the sociopaths and the abusers – will approach ANYBODY because rejection does not hurt them).
But for shy men, especially the extremely shy, unless you run into unusually bold women, basically, it’s not going to happen, because most women in our society will not approach men (they know that approaching random men pretty much guarantees that you will get a lot of rejection – and since they don’t have to approach men, they don’t).
And for guys who had any sort of childhood/adolescent sexual trauma [I'm one of those guys, BTW] it’s even harder to initiate sexual relationships.
So no, the whole “buck up and become a Type A Personality” thing is not going to work for most people.
I wish the hell it did – being one of those Type A take charge men is GREAT – the ones who can become car salespeople or Realtors or politicians or stockbrokers, the “outgoing” guys who every man wants to hang out with, and every woman wants to have sex with.
If I could snap my fingers and make myself that man I WOULD.
It would make my life easier – and not just personally.
But I can’t just go to the dealership and make a personality trade in – and I doubt too many other people can either.
My advice to shy people is accept and love the person you actually are, not the one everybody thinks you should be.
And for shy men in particular – yes, you will have fewer partners and less sex than the bold Type A “take charge” macho men, and no, getting angry at women is not going to change that (and not fair either – it’s not their fault that they grew up in a society that tells women to be passive sexually and to be attracted to the bold aggressive take charge men).
Hell, for the very shy men, you may NEVER know the love of a woman ever!
And you can’t make yourself into the macho take charge Type A men – it’ll be faking, and everybody will know it.
But you CAN learn to live without women!
That’s what I had to do – it’s really not that hard once you get used to it.
It’s not fun, and it is lonely, but you are not going to die from loneliness (although it sure as hell feels like it a lot of times)
But it’s not that easy.
You don’t have to become an extrovert to open yourself up to people.
I too as a kid was shy – and I too got feedback that people thought I was “stuck up” or “unfriendly.” I have to gear myself up to be “social,” and when I’m tired or emotionally depleted it’s hard to do (and when I’m a little bit intoxicated it’s extremely easy to do).
But you still can’t expect other people to magically know that you’re secretly dying to get to know them. And you certainly aren’t justified in being resentful when they don’t magically intuit your desires, or happen to reciprocate them.
Everyone has people who they desired who weren’t interested, and it hasn’t stopped them from moving on and finding people who they are compatible with who find them attractive.
I like what Randomizer said about realizing that part of his shyness was the conceit of thinking everything was about him. It’s important to be able to say to yourself “it’s not about me” – let it roll off your back and move on. I think the inability to do this is often a component of the “Nice Guy” syndrome, which is precisely what makes them NOT nice guys. They think so highly of themselves that any girl who doesn’t immediately recognize their wonderfulness is the subject of intense resentment and ill will. That’s different than just being introverted/shy. If you are shy but open to people, you can find low-key activities that put you in contact with the same people on a regular basis, get to know them slowly, have friends, and eventually meet someone with whom you have a mutual attraction. Is it guaranteed to be “happily ever after”? Of course not.
Being shy is not the same as being introverted!
Introversion/extroversion has to do with stimulation of the brain. An extrovert is stimulated by being around people. An introvert may enjoy being around people and have an easy time talking to them, but eventually they’re going to be overstimluated and need to withdraw.
I’m introverted, but I can handle myself and enjoy most social situations. However, unlike my best friend who can spend hours with large groups of people, after an hour or two, I find myself needing to either be alone or else move to a much less populated area.
Shyness relates to fear, not how much social stimulation your brain can handle before it starts to say, “Let’s get out of here.”
Shyness can be addressed incrementally, when it’s a matter of apprehension.
One exercise for young guys is to make three women smile each day.
That means being slightly more forward than usual at the Starbuck’s counter, saying something pleasant to a person waiting to cross the street, and so forth. At the same time, making every effort not to be creepy. So, you don’t address a woman on an elevator if you are the only two on it.
Eventually, the apprehension becomes slightly less an impediment.
Even a little bit helps.
I’d like to second much of what Gregory Butler says. The advice Hugo seems to be giving is “You are not OK just as you are. You have to change to conform to society’s expectations.” Well, I understand just how crippling shyness can be, believe me. But I’ve been in therapy for years, tried a host of different drugs to combat my social anxiety, and nothing has ever worked. This is simply who I am, and I cannot change it, as hard as I try. I can no more change my shyness than I can turn back time and undo all the abuse I suffered at the hands of my mother and my peers. It happened, and the results are crippling, as much as people like Hugo might wish to pretend that we can simply forget about it.
Ultimately, the best advice I can give to a shy man like myself, who has repeatedly tried to get past it, is simply to give up. Recognize that the world in general and women in particular do NOT value who you are, or will ever make allowances for your shortcomings. Sure, you might find that diamond in the rough who is willing to look past the shyness and see the real person underneath. The person who feels the same need for companionship as everyone else, but goes unfulfilled. Learn to enjoy being alone, because unless you are very lucky, that is how you will be spending your life.
I’ve had to do the same. It wasn’t easy, but I got there. I know I am alone, but I haven’t felt lonely in a long time.
I didn’t think this post would bring so many out of the woodwork, but I want to extend my sympathy to Glitch and Gregory, to the extent that while I am quite shy, and tending towards isolation, it has not been totally crippling. It is true that many, many men feel that “the world in general and women in particular do NOT value who you are”, and it grates a bit to hear someone like Hugo, whose life has characterized by privilege in many areas, give a bootstraps lecture to men whose lives have been formed by conditions that make their shyness a reflection of many interconnected problems, not a passing condition of adolescence caused by a temporary non-compliance with a few aspects of masculinity.
There are plenty of resources on shyness in general, and love-shyness in men in particular, all over the Internet, but they are a different issue than the potential for women-blaming by disgruntled men. There are cultures which teach people to notice signs of interest from the appropriate sex (for whatever value of sexual orientation), ours is not one of them, and many of them also impose the problems of patriarchy and rigid sex roles, but learning to notice interest can make a real difference in the lives of the chronically shy.
“[T]he whole point of relationships is to serve as vehicles for our mutual growth and transformation. Some folks are naturally more shy than others, and not every “I†is destined to turn into an “E†on the Myers-Briggs scale. But shyness is not an excuse for a prolonged refusal to take the initiative in relationships; geekiness is not an excuse for forcing one’s partner always to take on the role of the aggressor. Those who cope with anxiety by trying to assert control need relationships where they can learn to let go; those who cope with anxiety by withdrawing into a state of passive expectation need to learn to step up. That’s the whole bloody point of dating.”
This is all pure supposition on your part Hugo. In the few instances where I entered into a relationship I certainly did not expect or demand that my partner change, and think it is frankly childish to assume it. We should enter into romantic relationships with the people we see around us that we are attracted to and enjoy, not the imagined “end product” of what a person could be after they go through the magical Hugo transformation from geek to multiply-divorced alpha stud.
I think that we would ultimately be better served if outgoing people, regardless of sex, were encouraged to ask out the less-assertive members of their preferred sex. If assertive heterosexual women were encouraged more to ask out unassertive heterosexual men the entire problem of love-shyness would be greatly ameliorated (but not eliminated, obviously, there will always be losers in the game of love, sadly).
Also, it simply isn’t in the cards for some of us to change into Hugo’s imagined pro-feminist, outgoing ubermenschen. If a man is severely shy, there’s generally a good reason for it. As I stated above, I was abused both at home and school. There was never a safe space growing up, except in my own head, which is undoubtedly led to to where I am now. I’m 31 years old, have never dated longer than two months at a time, with no prospects of marriage and romance, and I’m trying to determine if I’m avoidant or schizoid. Unless you’ve actually been in my shoes, Hugo, you know not of what you speak. Don’t presume to tell me I have to change.
I don’t see why a good-hearted man like me can’t be a loving partner without having to make a radical transformation. I never took out my frustrations with women on the few I dated. I wouldn’t even dream of it, since I was just so damn glad to have someone. In short, the only thing holding me back is that so very few women seem willing to outright ask a man out on a date. I don’t see anything “feminist” about perpetuating this state of affairs.
I wonder is shy gay men have this problem?
Actually, I don’t see my introversion/shyness as “crippling”.
No, I am not a people person.
Yes, I do like to be by myself and to not always have a million people around me.
And yes, I have never had a healthy loving relationship with a woman [I HAVE had UNhealthy NONloving ones though - one lasted for the better part of 12 years]
Introversion and shyness does make me a good observer and a pretty decent writer. It also makes me an impartial shop steward [first line union representative] on my job – since I don’t have a lot of “friends” to bend the rules for.
It’s a personality trait, and I don’t see any need to change it.
Unfortunately being a shy man makes dating difficult – being a shy man who’s a survivor of childhood sexual abuse makes dating VERY difficult (especially since I was abused by a woman).
I actually spent a lot of years as a chronic woman-pleaser – I would twist myself into a pretzel to – to use Richard Aubrey’s words – “make a woman smile”.
But that made me feel bad inside – so I stopped it.
I have a DSL connection and HBO, Cinemax and Showtime on my TV, so I can get as much porn as I need – and that is much better, safer, cheaper and more self-protective than bad relationships with emotionally abusive women (which, historically, is the only kind of relationships with women I’ve ever had).
Mr. Butler, I’m genuinely sorry to hear of the abuse you have suffered and the results you see in your adult life. But you are 100% correct, no relationship at all is superior to a bad or unhealthy one.
Re: I don’t see why a good-hearted man like me can’t be a loving partner without having to make a radical transformation.
I actually have a theory, drawing on sociobiology, as to why people who are not ‘bad boys’ or ‘bad girls’ have been left out of the sexual free for all that is modern American culture. I think a large part of this has to do with the choice that our society made, in 1973, to definitively separate sex from procreation. This has created all kinds of cultural and psychological changes in men, women, and in their relationships with each other that we are only now beginning to fully appreciate: simply put, if sex has nothing to do with eventually having and raising children, then those men and women who would make good parents, as opposed to being simply good in bed, are suddenly at a terrible disadvantage. I think that the day will come when we come to blame Harry Blackmun and Judith Jarvis Thompsen for most of the problems with sex, romance, dating and marriage in modern America.
I have to run and study for an exam now, and I’m sure Hugo doesn’t want me to start a screed against Roe v. Wade on his blog, so if you do want to respond to me, please do it at my blog: http://www.patriabolivariana2008.blogspot.com
I’m actually kind of confused about the notion that assertive women don’t ask men out. That hasn’t been my experience. Now, it might not be for a “dinner and a movie” date. It might be – my friends and I are having a party, would you like to come? or an invitation to a particular activity or coffee (which is a better first date anyway). But I think that still counts as asking. If the only invitation you recognize as romantic interest is “would you like to go on a date with me?” then your problem is not with women not asking, it’s with your narrow definition of what “asking” is.
Wait, Hector — NOW you tell us you have a blog? Holding out on us?
Hah, the secret is out! My unwashed and hairy hormonal hordes are coming your way, laddie.
Hector, I don’t mean to break your heart, but free love and being ‘bad’ have nothing to do with one another. Despite the bitter refrain that women only like ‘bad boys’, all of the genuinely nice guys I know seem to be at no disadvantage at all when it comes to finding partners.
Which is to say, I really don’t think you’re going to persuade most men that they’d get laid more if only the bitches couldn’t have abortions.
Mythago, I would never use the word ‘b*tch’, except perhaps in extreme circumstances, and never about an ordinary person (only maybe against a female politician I disliked). I resent you implying that I would.
It would be more accurate if you had said, “Most [decent] guys might get more attention from women if the caddish @$$holes weren’t able to pressure their girl-friends into having abortions.”
Gregory:
You wrote:
“Also, with the whole male/female dynamic, shyness basically does not matter for women, because some guy will approach them sooner or later…”
I have to disagree with that. I’m shy, and, trust me, it does matter. Sure, maybe “some guy” will approach [a shy woman] sooner or later, but if it’s not whom she’s interested in, then what? Women’s part in the mating game isn’t as passive as some might think, even if it is men who do the vast majority of the asking out. I’ve seen many cases where the female pursued the male, and his asking her out was a mere formality; it was obvious that she was interested. (I’ve also seen cases where he wasn’t interested and didn’t ask her out.) Being shy can make it difficult for a woman to let a guy know she’s interested in him, which is often the encouragement that a man needs to ask her out.
It just makes me angry and frustrated to feel that I have to change, I have to come out of my shell. If we’re all intrinsically lovable, shouldn’t someone love us just by the virtue of being? That’s how I feel, and I bet a lot of shy men feel the same way too.
Well, it’s a two-way street, there. You absolutely do get to decide how much effort you want to expend…but so does everyone else.
That means if you don’t want to come out of yourself, but the person you like wants someone who will, you don’t get to hate on them for not appreciating you *properly*. You acknowledge that they don’t want you because you can’t give them what they need and wait patiently for someone who will want you just as you are.
Or, you could put a little more work in, edge out of your comfort zone a bit, and give the person some indication that you’re interested. Maybe they’ll pick up on it, or maybe not. But you don’t get to hate on them for not giving you what you want.
It has nothing to do, BTW, with good girls or bad girls or bad boys or any of that crapola. It’s about not feeling ENTITLED to a specific person’s attention, period.
Gee, Hugo, you said “geeky,” “introvert,” and “shy” like they were bad things. I guess I possess only negative qualities. (Hugo would probably approve of the vegan thing but with most people it just makes us less able to relate to each other.) And I’m supposed to believe I am worthy of love and junk? I fail at dating if I don’t become the polar opposite of me?
There is such a thing as extrovert privilege.
Sorry for multiple comments, but I had another thought. Hugo, you seem to think of dating as a way to grow as a person. Sure, it can be that, but I think of it as more a search for someone compatible with you, which is very needle-in-a-haystack, but I don’t view my traits as in need of change just because they aren’t popular with the guys. I’m kind of defensive about even the less attractive points of my personality, such as shyness, in light of the fact that I see them portrayed as sexy when they belong to a hot babe on TV, plus I don’t like changing myself just to please others when I think my original position was justified.