I think of it as being ironic, I’d be really put off if I thought any of them were sincere about it

Pick a justification, please. You can’t (believably, anyway) argue that your friends are simultaneously doing all of the following: working through discomfort at changing views of privilege, enjoying the thrill of using ‘bad words’, displaying masculinity, being ironic and totally not at all sincere, and really just needing to relax.

“Ironic” and “satire” are much-abused terms these days. They’re the text equivalent of writing a nasty, assholish post, then slapping a on the end and pretending that negates the prior nasty assholery. “Ironic” is not when you get when you mix bigotry with a self-perception that one is very, very witty.

Whether the thought is father to the deed is academic, as we’re talking about deeds.

OK, so on the chance that we’re harbouring some utter psycho in our midst we should leave off this stuff just in case. Hmm. I mean, yeah, if I was exchanging random *isms with passing strangers I can see how I would run the risk of potentially encouraging the wrong sort of behaviour, but I do feel I know these guys reasonably well.

Hi, Adrian. Have you considered that is usually a woman’s buddy, friend, boyfriend, husband, or family member who rapes her, and not a passing stranger? It seems likely that she probably thought she knew that guy reasonably well too, and that she was relatively certain he wasn’t an utter psycho until the attack. What I am trying to suggest is that you are really in no position to be confident that no one in a group of people that you know through a mailing list (even for ten years), is not a rapist or misogynist who will feel validated by what he perceives as your approval and support.

I get that you don’t really mean that shit. I get that you’re just talking out your ass…

As long as we live in a culture where the good guys sometimes sound just like the misogynists, the misogynists are never going to get the message that they are not normal and that most people–strong, successful men included–do not hate women.

Good grief. And you wonder why feminists are such killjoys, when we’re dealing with infants in grown mens’ bodies all the damned time.

There’s a line that often comes up when guys are having feminism 101 elucidated – “You’re not bad for having privilege” which always seems to have the rider “…but you will be if you don’t change your behaviour now that we’ve explained it to you”. And not just the behaviour, but the underlying attitudes themselves. Not just “Stop making fat jokes” but “Become a person who doesn’t find fat jokes funny” and then “Become a person who will stand up and berate the tellers of fat jokes for insensitivity even in the absence of the fat”. And I think it’s a steep hill to climb for a lot of guys, to the point where a lot of them are likely to go and devote themselves to other things. Being thought “priggish”, or inappropriately judgmental, is quite a turnoff. Naturally, a feminist would say there’s nothing inappropriate about it, but for people who haven’t internalised the idea of the invisible octopus of patriarchy stealthily caressing our spines with its memetic tentacles of privilege it’s going to be a hard sell.

Anyway, with that metaphor I’m clearly up past my bedtime…

Consider: apparently our entire movement is bereft of all meaning if we say we’re even the wee-est bit distrustful of men. We’re supposed to be full of warm fuzzies for the these fellows, who after all, are mostly a nice bunch.

Yet should one of us toddle back a little tipsy to a male friend’s dorm room, laughing all the way and, whoops! get raped, well, folks just come out of the woodwork telling us she must have known that was going to happen, she must have wanted it, that she should have been more careful, that it was because she was drunk and hey, why ruin the poor guy’s life when he didn’t anything so VERY bad.

Yet should said rape victim, faced not only with the assault on her body but the assault on her dignity by many people she knows and cares about, join the feminist band and take self-defense classes and get mad and get active, we’re back to the trust thing. She should know that it was just that one guy, just that once, that it’s not like this is common or anything. And after all, she’ll drive off all the nice dudes if she keeps acting so angry, since it IS her purpose to be a receptacle for somebody’s spunk, to make the menz feel cozy and never hurt anyone’s feelings.

And then the whiners snivelling about how that same and, unfortunately, frequently necessary caution is hurting them? Who think that including women in the definiton of humanity by sending “mankind” the way of the dodo is just too onerous a burden until feminists do something about the fact that male screen writers write male characters as doofuses, instead of focusing on, for instance, the abysmal rates of rape convictions? Who evidently believe that there’s a level playing field in action, and so men mistrusting women is as perfectly justified despite the reams of evidence that men have greater power in virtually every area of society and are fine with using that to discriminate against gal-dom?

I’d end with something flagrantly obscene, and not in a sexyfun way, but I dunno about the comments policy on this blog.

@ Adrian Smith:

You want feedback on, if I read you correctly, when it’s okay to “vent.”

ok – you stated this:
“Almost certainly we are performing masculinity for each other, and as one with aspirations towards profeminism I nevertheless wondered what the importance of this was as long as it didn’t impact any of its targets. I thought of it as just venting. One often reads of how minorities need to vent at white guys occasionally, and how we shouldn’t take it personally.”

You totally nailed it with “we are performing masculinity for each other”. But it is not the same thing as “minorities” seeking to ‘vent’ about their stresses and oppressions of White/het/abled/male/etc society. Because when the privileged trade remarks that are sexist, racist, etc, they are re-enacting and re-enforcing their own privilege.

It’s not a release of pressure from a society that thinks you are less-than, or a way to think through oppression to make change – which is what those “minorities” are doing. And their venting does not make it harder for White guys to get a job, live in the areas they want to live, or see themselves represented in all areas of human endeavour (for example). Their venting does not have the power to harm the privileged, whereas the privileged spouting supremacy certainly promoted and maintains inequality across the board.

Thus sitting in a privileged-only space and saying racist, sexist things is exactly a mechanism of maintaining domination and inequality.

And thus when you ask: “I nevertheless wondered what the importance of this was as long as it didn’t impact any of its targets.” – the thing is, it DOES impact all of its targets, all the time. It makes those very ideas seem right and reinforces their use in the ‘real world.’ Just because some woman or Black person isn’t literally there to hear it does not make it ok.

It’s the privileged giving themselves more permission and more fuel to continue their privilege and their sense of superiority.

So yeah – a truly ethical human won’t want to be participating in that sort of framework.

It also isn’t the role of feminism to make men comfortable with friends or in a space that makes them victims. Women are afraid. Afraid of being attacked, afraid of being ridiculed, afraid of being mocked, afraid of being objectified, and afraid of being told that this is not as important as men feeling comfortable.

It is laughable to read that somehow attitudes like Melissa’s somehow created misogyny. So, her distrust of men created distrust of feminists. I am so sorry if pointing out sexism has somehow made some men feel defensive, but I am having a hard time seeing that as more important that the sexism and patriarchy that exists.

Because I’ve only seen feminist bloggers take a stand against those portrayals of doofus husbands about five million times. But I can’t remember off the top of my head if Melissa has blogged about it specifically herself, so I guess your point is totally valid and the patriarchy doesn’t hurt men at all because it’s those evil feminists writing those sitcoms. Totally.

Something else that seems relevant: I recall reading about a study that showed feminist women held a higher opinion of men in general than non-feminist women, probably because the trope that men are slave to their animal instincts and just can’t help raping and killing is decidedly frowned upon in feminist circles. And it’s generally not the feminists emphasizing how necessary it is for women not to do anything that encourages men to rape them, such as walking alone at night, or smiling at people.

Not deferential enough? Well, sorry. I was kind of hoping for advice from a guy, actually, which is why I came to Hugo’s blog. The profeminist men’s community isn’t quite the hotbed of activity I’d hoped, unless I’ve missed some huge network of busy sites. I suppose I should start my own.

it sounds like you’re pouty that the mean, mean feminists are suggesting that it’s perhaps not all that cool that you and your buddies find it funny to talk about women as being no more than fuckholes.

It’s really not that extreme AAMOF – I think of it as being ironic, I’d be really put off if I thought any of them were sincere about it – a performance, as I said.

You could think of me as “questioning” – my patriarchal identity rather than my sexuality, not that there would be anything wrong if it was the latter, obviously. Or you could just dismiss me as a troll, that might be the easiest thing.

On the off chance that you’re not concern-trolling, why are you “venting”?

Is it so awful that, in real life, you’re not cheered on for making nigger jokes, so you have to turn to like-minded bros online to let it all out?

Haven’t you ever enjoyed being somewhere you can relax and not have to watch what you say? People who talk about ally work always mention the need to confront the fellow-privileged about their actions and language. And they often say that you need to abandon the friends you can’t convert if you’re going to remain among the righteous, though they’re a bit more circumspect about family. And I’m glad for these people and their turnover, that they can change their friends like they change their underpants, but I’m not in a situation where that’s particularly easy.

You’re not mythago from Making Light, are you? Not that it’s any of my business.