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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Are you gonna step up and pat the pony, or do I need to go to the rodeo down the road?&#8221;*  On myths of male weakness and having the marriage discussion</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/</link>
	<description>Author, Speaker, Professor, Shattering Gender Myths</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 04:08:01 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Areyousad</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9807</link>
		<dc:creator>Areyousad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 06:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9807</guid>
		<description>The first and greatest victory is to conquer yourself; to be conquered by yourself is of all things most shameful and vile.		
	Quotation of Plato</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The first and greatest victory is to conquer yourself; to be conquered by yourself is of all things most shameful and vile.<br />
	Quotation of Plato</p>
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		<title>By: Randomizer</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9806</link>
		<dc:creator>Randomizer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 15:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9806</guid>
		<description>@Tara:

No in the latter case you are not obliged to stop dating him.  But, you are obliged ethically not to lead him on if he makes it clear that he is thinking in terms of it being a &quot;forever thing.&quot;

I can&#039;t imagine a conversation going well where you, out of some misguided sense of proactive fair play, tell him straight up that he&#039;s Mr. Right Now, not Mr. Right.  Unless you&#039;ve told him different, he cannot justifiably assume the latter.

So relax, have fun, be honest and if your intentions seem to be diverging, then I guess the &quot;what are you looking for in this relationship&quot; talk would need to happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tara:</p>
<p>No in the latter case you are not obliged to stop dating him.  But, you are obliged ethically not to lead him on if he makes it clear that he is thinking in terms of it being a &#8220;forever thing.&#8221;</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t imagine a conversation going well where you, out of some misguided sense of proactive fair play, tell him straight up that he&#8217;s Mr. Right Now, not Mr. Right.  Unless you&#8217;ve told him different, he cannot justifiably assume the latter.</p>
<p>So relax, have fun, be honest and if your intentions seem to be diverging, then I guess the &#8220;what are you looking for in this relationship&#8221; talk would need to happen.</p>
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		<title>By: Tara</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9805</link>
		<dc:creator>Tara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 11:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9805</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m dating someone now whose company I really enjoy but I&#039;m pretty sure I couldn&#039;t see committing to permanently. If I knew that getting married soon was impotant to him, I think I&#039;d feel ethically obliged to stop dating him. So it could be useful to know. I&#039;m also not sure if I&#039;ll feel obliged to stop dating him regardless, if I get to a point where I&#039;m even more than pretty sure that it&#039;s a for now thing and not a forever thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m dating someone now whose company I really enjoy but I&#8217;m pretty sure I couldn&#8217;t see committing to permanently. If I knew that getting married soon was impotant to him, I think I&#8217;d feel ethically obliged to stop dating him. So it could be useful to know. I&#8217;m also not sure if I&#8217;ll feel obliged to stop dating him regardless, if I get to a point where I&#8217;m even more than pretty sure that it&#8217;s a for now thing and not a forever thing.</p>
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		<title>By: meerkat</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9804</link>
		<dc:creator>meerkat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 01:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9804</guid>
		<description>Hugo, how come you address the loved ones of people with autism or Asperger&#039;s but not the people themselves?  It doesn&#039;t necessarily stop you from reading blogs, you know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugo, how come you address the loved ones of people with autism or Asperger&#8217;s but not the people themselves?  It doesn&#8217;t necessarily stop you from reading blogs, you know.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynn Gazis-Sax</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9803</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn Gazis-Sax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:49:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9803</guid>
		<description>The point where I&#039;d cross from &quot;OK to bring up the marriage thing if you feel strongly about it and are OK with screening out people who aren&#039;t clear on their feelings yet&quot; to &quot;It&#039;s really wiser to bring up marriage than leave it undiscussed&quot; is the point where you&#039;re moving in together. For some people, living together is something you do instead of getting married, and for others, something you do in preparation for getting married, and if the two of you aren&#039;t on the same page about that and don&#039;t know it, there can be hurt down the road for both people. Better, if you&#039;re going to break up because you don&#039;t have the same views of marriage, to do it before your finances are entangled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point where I&#8217;d cross from &#8220;OK to bring up the marriage thing if you feel strongly about it and are OK with screening out people who aren&#8217;t clear on their feelings yet&#8221; to &#8220;It&#8217;s really wiser to bring up marriage than leave it undiscussed&#8221; is the point where you&#8217;re moving in together. For some people, living together is something you do instead of getting married, and for others, something you do in preparation for getting married, and if the two of you aren&#8217;t on the same page about that and don&#8217;t know it, there can be hurt down the road for both people. Better, if you&#8217;re going to break up because you don&#8217;t have the same views of marriage, to do it before your finances are entangled.</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda Marcotte</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9802</link>
		<dc:creator>Amanda Marcotte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:00:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9802</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll repeat something Dan Savage said to a woman who was worried she was going to blurt out &quot;I love you&quot; too soon: Even if the guy is feeling it, too, it&#039;s good to give it some time.  Because one thing we look for in a mate is good judgment, and someone who has a tin ear for timing is a huge red flag.  

But even more than &quot;I love you&quot;, the marriage thing is worrisome.  It signals that you have the dress and church date set, and now you just need the other accessory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll repeat something Dan Savage said to a woman who was worried she was going to blurt out &#8220;I love you&#8221; too soon: Even if the guy is feeling it, too, it&#8217;s good to give it some time.  Because one thing we look for in a mate is good judgment, and someone who has a tin ear for timing is a huge red flag.  </p>
<p>But even more than &#8220;I love you&#8221;, the marriage thing is worrisome.  It signals that you have the dress and church date set, and now you just need the other accessory.</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda Marcotte</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9801</link>
		<dc:creator>Amanda Marcotte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9801</guid>
		<description>Since the majority of people do marry, I think that it&#039;s well understood that most people who are dating would like to marry the right person some day.  Those of us who are not interested are the ones who have to speak up, and that&#039;s fine with me.  We&#039;re not the norm.  But a person who might be the one who gives you that ring you&#039;re dying for might turn into not that person if you creep them out by appearing grabby.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since the majority of people do marry, I think that it&#8217;s well understood that most people who are dating would like to marry the right person some day.  Those of us who are not interested are the ones who have to speak up, and that&#8217;s fine with me.  We&#8217;re not the norm.  But a person who might be the one who gives you that ring you&#8217;re dying for might turn into not that person if you creep them out by appearing grabby.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynn Gazis-Sax</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9800</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn Gazis-Sax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 16:40:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9800</guid>
		<description>I think that &lt;em&gt;having children&lt;/em&gt; is a &quot;worthwhile goal,&quot; and that people who know that they care deeply about having children shouldn&#039;t be expected to drift through life as if they were people who only might want children eventually if the right person and situation come along.

Now, it seems to me, logically, that there are three approaches you can take, if you know for sure that you will want children in your life: 1) Start dating only semi-intentionally, as it were, early, perhaps even in your twenties.  That is, know that, since you do want children, you&#039;ll be willing to marry if you find the right person, keep an eye out for obvious red flags in the &quot;could I have children with this person&quot; department, but leave yourself &lt;em&gt;plenty&lt;/em&gt; of time to possibly go through plenty of people, so that you don&#039;t have to settle, and can hold out for the person who does knock your socks off.  2) Date not particularly intentionally at all when young, maybe actually meet someone you&#039;d marry, but, if you don&#039;t, get much more rushed as you run out of time when you could reasonably have kids, and therefore much more marriage focused in your dating approach.  Or, 3) Be prepared to have children as a single parent if you don&#039;t find the right person. (Simplifying some here, since I&#039;m leaving out the possibility that people might have kids while living together and considering themselves committed partners, because I don&#039;t think that fact figures too much into whether &quot;Laura&quot; should be marriage-minded in her dating.)

It seems to me that if you rule out 3) (or, at least, consider it reasonable for another person to be unwilling to do 3), it has to be OK to some degree to treat marriage as a &quot;reasonable goal&quot; in dating.  And, though that can, if done in a sufficiently time pressured way, lead to &quot;marriage or bust&quot; and &quot;settling,&quot; it&#039;s not clear to me that it has to, anymore than treating &quot;I&#039;d like to have some sort of sex life&quot; as a reasonable goal inherently has to mean treating other people just as any old person to put into that slot and not caring about the person as a whole.  Since 1) seems a more desirable approach than 2), people who are absolutely sure they want children would be wise to be open to getting married years ahead of whatever they&#039;d consider their reasonable deadline for having children, but not to listen to Chicken Little &quot;women, you&#039;re dooming yourselves to childless unhappiness if you don&#039;t marry in your early twenties&quot; warnings.  Which still might mean at some point, for some people, getting marriage-minded in dating in the way that &quot;Laura&quot; is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that <em>having children</em> is a &#8220;worthwhile goal,&#8221; and that people who know that they care deeply about having children shouldn&#8217;t be expected to drift through life as if they were people who only might want children eventually if the right person and situation come along.</p>
<p>Now, it seems to me, logically, that there are three approaches you can take, if you know for sure that you will want children in your life: 1) Start dating only semi-intentionally, as it were, early, perhaps even in your twenties.  That is, know that, since you do want children, you&#8217;ll be willing to marry if you find the right person, keep an eye out for obvious red flags in the &#8220;could I have children with this person&#8221; department, but leave yourself <em>plenty</em> of time to possibly go through plenty of people, so that you don&#8217;t have to settle, and can hold out for the person who does knock your socks off.  2) Date not particularly intentionally at all when young, maybe actually meet someone you&#8217;d marry, but, if you don&#8217;t, get much more rushed as you run out of time when you could reasonably have kids, and therefore much more marriage focused in your dating approach.  Or, 3) Be prepared to have children as a single parent if you don&#8217;t find the right person. (Simplifying some here, since I&#8217;m leaving out the possibility that people might have kids while living together and considering themselves committed partners, because I don&#8217;t think that fact figures too much into whether &#8220;Laura&#8221; should be marriage-minded in her dating.)</p>
<p>It seems to me that if you rule out 3) (or, at least, consider it reasonable for another person to be unwilling to do 3), it has to be OK to some degree to treat marriage as a &#8220;reasonable goal&#8221; in dating.  And, though that can, if done in a sufficiently time pressured way, lead to &#8220;marriage or bust&#8221; and &#8220;settling,&#8221; it&#8217;s not clear to me that it has to, anymore than treating &#8220;I&#8217;d like to have some sort of sex life&#8221; as a reasonable goal inherently has to mean treating other people just as any old person to put into that slot and not caring about the person as a whole.  Since 1) seems a more desirable approach than 2), people who are absolutely sure they want children would be wise to be open to getting married years ahead of whatever they&#8217;d consider their reasonable deadline for having children, but not to listen to Chicken Little &#8220;women, you&#8217;re dooming yourselves to childless unhappiness if you don&#8217;t marry in your early twenties&#8221; warnings.  Which still might mean at some point, for some people, getting marriage-minded in dating in the way that &#8220;Laura&#8221; is.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9799</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:28:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9799</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Asking it in the context of â€œdo you see a future with meâ€ at a third date is a big red flag&lt;/i&gt;

Which, for &quot;Laura&quot;, is presumably not a bug, but a feature, since it allows her to weed you out as much as it allows you to weed her out.  

On a personal level, I&#039;ve taken a radically different approach from that; I realised when I was twenty-two I had absolutely no idea what I was doing with respect to dating/relationships, and decided to drop any pretense otherwise; I have entered relationships since then with no expectations whatsoever, just tried to figure things out empirically.  But if you know what you&#039;re trying to do, there&#039;s no reason to deny it (and plenty of reason not to.)  There&#039;s no reason that wanting a marriage, family, whatnot can&#039;t be central to what you want from your life, rather than peripheral/incidental, and no saying &quot;if/then&quot;, while still accepting that maybe it&#039;s something you can&#039;t accomplish, but having it as a goal.  There&#039;s really no reason to drift through life in this respect, letting the current take you where it may and being happy with wherever you end up.

&lt;i&gt;Or, probably, several other reasons that I havenâ€™t thought of, with reasons varying depending on the man.&lt;/i&gt;
Having sex with someone is often an excellent way to crystalise your emotions about them.  I could certainly see it making clear &quot;No, I don&#039;t really like this person enough.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Asking it in the context of â€œdo you see a future with meâ€ at a third date is a big red flag</i></p>
<p>Which, for &#8220;Laura&#8221;, is presumably not a bug, but a feature, since it allows her to weed you out as much as it allows you to weed her out.  </p>
<p>On a personal level, I&#8217;ve taken a radically different approach from that; I realised when I was twenty-two I had absolutely no idea what I was doing with respect to dating/relationships, and decided to drop any pretense otherwise; I have entered relationships since then with no expectations whatsoever, just tried to figure things out empirically.  But if you know what you&#8217;re trying to do, there&#8217;s no reason to deny it (and plenty of reason not to.)  There&#8217;s no reason that wanting a marriage, family, whatnot can&#8217;t be central to what you want from your life, rather than peripheral/incidental, and no saying &#8220;if/then&#8221;, while still accepting that maybe it&#8217;s something you can&#8217;t accomplish, but having it as a goal.  There&#8217;s really no reason to drift through life in this respect, letting the current take you where it may and being happy with wherever you end up.</p>
<p><i>Or, probably, several other reasons that I havenâ€™t thought of, with reasons varying depending on the man.</i><br />
Having sex with someone is often an excellent way to crystalise your emotions about them.  I could certainly see it making clear &#8220;No, I don&#8217;t really like this person enough.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9798</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/24/are-you-gonna-step-up-and-pat-the-pony-or-do-i-need-to-go-to-the-rodeo-down-the-road-on-myths-of-male-weakness-and-having-the-marriage-discussion/#comment-9798</guid>
		<description>Incidentally, on the issue of being &quot;scared off&quot;, from the man&#039;s perspective, that isn&#039;t necessarily an outgrowth of the &quot;myth of male weakness&quot; but also can arise from the fact that we make our own assessments about what constitutes &quot;marriage material&quot;.  Many men, if not most, learn or assume that anything that&#039;s not ideal in a prospective wife before the marriage isn&#039;t going to be any better after the vows.  Whatever is a red-flag during the dating phase could easily be a full-blown and irreconcilable issue later.  This may not be a bad precautionary assumption to make for either sex, but I believe that women in this culture are more likely to buy into the belief that they are going to be able to &quot;change&quot; their future husband for the better.  Marriage involves a complex series of trade-offs, as does any committed relationship, of freedom and independence for stability and predictability, over a long term.  It&#039;s unwise not to try to assess the cost-benefit balance before the fact as best one can.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Incidentally, on the issue of being &#8220;scared off&#8221;, from the man&#8217;s perspective, that isn&#8217;t necessarily an outgrowth of the &#8220;myth of male weakness&#8221; but also can arise from the fact that we make our own assessments about what constitutes &#8220;marriage material&#8221;.  Many men, if not most, learn or assume that anything that&#8217;s not ideal in a prospective wife before the marriage isn&#8217;t going to be any better after the vows.  Whatever is a red-flag during the dating phase could easily be a full-blown and irreconcilable issue later.  This may not be a bad precautionary assumption to make for either sex, but I believe that women in this culture are more likely to buy into the belief that they are going to be able to &#8220;change&#8221; their future husband for the better.  Marriage involves a complex series of trade-offs, as does any committed relationship, of freedom and independence for stability and predictability, over a long term.  It&#8217;s unwise not to try to assess the cost-benefit balance before the fact as best one can.</p>
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