I’ve written a number of posts on pornography. I’ve taken a fairly strong anti-porn line, linked to my own admission that for years, I struggled with pornography addiction. I’ve had many years of recovery from that compulsion as well as from so many others. What I’ve had a hard time doing is letting go of the “disease model” for approaching the subject. While I acknowledge that plenty of folks (but not me) can drink beer without becoming alcoholics, I’ve had a harder time acknowledging that the same might well be true for pornography. (See the post linked in my second sentence.)
This tendency to extrapolate from my own experience combines with a traditional (call it Second Wave) suspicion that pornography is always and invariably anti-feminist, even when what is filmed or written seems empowering and redemptive. But in the last two years, the number of emails and comments I’ve gotten from feminist women who regularly view pornography has risen dramatically. Though I don’t ask my students to share this sort of information, the number of journal entries in which students of both sexes talk openly about their porn use has almost, um, exploded exponentially in that same time period.
The anecdotal evidence I’m getting of an increase in women’s use of pornography seems backed up by the evidence. It’s not hard to figure out why. The anonymity of the internet is helpful. In a world where we shame women for displaying sexual interest, there is a much higher social cost to admitting to porn use than for men. The web allows the consumer to avoid going to a physical place to buy or watch erotic media. And equally importantly, the depth and breadth of erotic material online means that women are much more likely to find porn on the ‘net that was created by and for women.
I got a message from a Facebook friend last week that summed up a lot of what I’ve been getting from those who are critical of my anti-porn stance. Artemisia, who is a married mother of teens, wrote:
… I think you have painted both porn and porn consumers with too broad a brush. And the brush you use feels hurtful and shaming. Yes, there are a lot of really vile things out there, but there are some things that are tasteful and even sweet. What really smarts is that your discussion assumes that porn consumers are men, thereby making women who consume porn rare and likely deviant. But, that isn’t true; some research has shown that as much as a third of all online porn is consumed by women. Further, about 17% of couples who watch porn together as a part of their lovemaking. The entrance of women into the porn market as consumers has irrevocably changed that market. The role of porn user has been cast as a guy who is either single or sneaking it outside of his relationship. That is not only untrue; it is a bit gender-biased.
I am, on occasion, a consumer of pornography both online and in print. And I have to say that it makes me really uncomfortable that people assume that I am watching something vile and that only men watch porn. Judiciously chosen erotica (what you call porn because it has live actors) has been helpful in my sex-life with my husband. I/we don’t use it regularly, but it is helpful at times. And it doesn’t drive us apart; it makes us closer and makes our sex better. You said to ask any woman if her husband is a better lover for having been online with porn. I have to say a resounding yes. And, to bring a little gender equality here, I am also a better lover.
It seems important here to really qualify that not all porn is created equally. For example, one of my favorite sites, and one of the most popular porn sites on the web, features average, every-day women of all sizes and ethnicities masturbating to orgasm in an environment that can only be described as respectful. It doesn’t lie; it doesn’t make anything selfish. It educates, and does so well. And I think that the site’s popularity makes an important point: the worst of internet porn is not representative even though it is abundant and flashy. There are fewer respectful, sane sites, but those are the ones that stay around for years and that become profitable staples.
Artemisia suggests what I’m hearing from others out there: female consumers are changing the face of porn, at least to the extent that a significant section of the erotic marketplace is aimed at their needs and desires. What that means is that those of us who launch into traditional critiques of porn as graphic misogyny are making a lot of women feel invisible and shamed. As a feminist ally, that troubles me, as do the letters and journal entries and chats I’ve had with young people of both sexes who insist it is genuinely possible to find porn that is arousing and progressive. Like Artemisia, these men and women suggest it is possible to “get off” in a morally and politically responsible and enlightened way. (I don’t know which web site Artemisia refers to, but I’m told that there are a number of similar sites.)
Here’s the thing. I’m not going to spend a great deal of time sampling what’s “out there”, any more than as a sober alcoholic, I’m planning to go wine tasting. Part of recovery is learning one’s limits, and while I don’t get uncomfortable with sexually explicit material these days, I also want to acknowledge my own boundaries. That said, I also want to reiterate my concern that much of mainstream porn — particularly the sort of thing that young people first discover online — is degrading and misogynistic. I’m not yet convinced that for many if not all, habitual porn use doesn’t play a part in encouraging dissatisfaction with a single partner. (The longing for everlasting novelty notion.) I hear from many of my female (and a few of my male) students that porn has badly distorted their understanding of sexuality and the ideal body, impacting the kind of sex they think they “ought” to be having. As for “feminist porn”, I worry that at least some of that empowerment is slickly oversold, as with the ultra-hip “Suicide Girls” site, which was bought by Playboy. And lastly, while I acknowledge that not everyone who encounters porn will use it addictively, I think a great many people clearly can become unhealthily addicted. All this concerns me.
But having made all that clear, let me also say this. I’m not going to ignore the Artemisias of this world. There are few things I’d less like to do with my writing and my lecturing than instill shame. I know that I’ve done that around this issue, particularly with my decision in 2008 to assign my Men and Masculinity students Robert Jensen’s famous Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity, a book about which I wrote a laudatory three-part review here. I loved Jensen’s thesis (read the previous link for more). Many of my students did too. But some of my students of both sexes who told me they viewed porn felt overwhelmed, shamed, guilt-ridden as a result. One young woman told me she had stopped looking at porn but felt guilty about the arousing images that still popped into her head. Another young guy, one of my best students, told me that he felt as if he’d been set up for failure, as if Jensen and I were positing abstinence from pornography as the sine qua non of being a decent male. “If I masturbate to porn can I still be a good man” was the question I got from more than one anguished participant in the class. And if several of the students were willing to divulge such private pain to me, I can only assume that still others felt the same way but kept silent.
I’m going to reconsider assigning “Getting Off.” I love Jensen’s book – it resonates with me. But unlike any other text I’ve ever assigned, its stridency wounded some very sensitive and reflective kids. And my stridency on this issue wounded Artemisia, a friend whose kids are almost the age of most of my students. I grieve that, and need to take action around that, finding a way both to point out what is so terribly problematic about so much pornography — and to acknowledge that at least for some, the use of visual and written erotica can be joyous, liberating, and fully compatible with a vision of justice in which human beings are not objectified. The latter was not my experience, but I cannot in good conscience continue to extrapolate universal truths from my own memories of compulsiveness.
It is almost universally acknowledged that with the possible exception of race, there are few issues more divisive within feminist communities than porn. Allies who agree on everything else find themselves bewildered at a friend’s views on internet erotica. Somehow, we’ve got to do a better job of listening to each other’s stories, of honestly sharing our own, of doing everything possible to avoid shaming and belittling each other. The knowledge that what I’ve said or written about this topic has proved deeply hurtful troubles me, as well it ought. I can’t avoid the issue altogether, nor can I responsibly avoid raising the concerns I’ve always raised about porn. But I can do a better job of creating a space where we who want a world that is both just and joyous, safe and shame-free, can find common ground.
I still personally take a stance against porn, but if some say it benefits their relationships that’s fine. I hope they’ve analyzed how it benefits their relationship as opposed to just seeing results, and assuming it’s from pornography and not other issues being satisfied or ignored. I never was addicted to porn and find even the most tame pornography disturbing. I wouldn’t want images of other men to pop into my head, nor the opposite sex in my husband’s. If I want to educate myself sexually I ask my husband what he likes, or I figure out what I like through masturbation, I don’t need it as a tool…thankfully, because honestly I personally don’t see the benefit in it at all…but I do want to reiterate if someone finds it attractive and it works for them…then kudos!
I would encourage you to check out Tristan Taormino’s work, Courtney Trouble’s work (she makes some amazing queer porn), and Pink and White’s stuff (they run Crashpadseries.com). All feminist, all great porn. The performers pick who they perform with, discuss the scenes beforehand, and are all friends outside of the industry. I follow many of the performers on Twitter and they all talk to each other, and seemingly love what they do. Jiz Lee is one of my favorite performers and she writes a <a href= “http://jizlee.com/wordpress/”fantastic blog that contains some of the smartest writing on the net. While Sasha Grey isn’t always my cup of tea, she’s made some very smart statements about her performance in the industry, and considers herself a feminist. I’d read some interviews with her, as well.
Good Vibes recently interviewed Dylan Ryan about her experiences in the industry, and her master’s thesis that she’s currently writing that is based on porn and her performing in porn. It’s a great read and she’s very smart, articulate, and positive.
Here’s how I feel about porn: if the performers are in the industry because it’s something they love, they have control over their scenes, they’re respected on the set, and it’s a positive experience for them, I don’t see a problem with it. However, I have found that much of the porn that I enjoy and find feminist in nature is queer.
Sorry for not closing my tag up there!
I don’t know if I’m willing to venture out into any kind of porn arena, I may not have had a pornography addiction, but I’ve had emotional affairs against my husband, and feel it would be detrimental to the relationship. I don’t have a problem with people who are comfortable looking or being in porn if I feel it is something they really chose.
When I masturbate I fantasize about my husband and even then sometimes I get uncomfortable at the whole selfishness of the act, the only comforting thing is my husband finds it sexy if I tell him about it.
My husband had a problem with pornography, so viewing it together would make me highly uncomfortable, it’s bad enough that the first time he “cheated” on me with pornography I felt it was me who opened up the floodgates by trying to be ok with pornography when I knew he had a problem with it before.
I’m not very comfortable viewing something that I feel is supposed to be a private moment between two people just to facilitate an orgasm, even if it is mutually beneficial to both parties.
I don’t want to seem like I’m looking down on anyone who views porn, I don’t…it makes me a little leery being around guys who watch it that seem to have that stare that penetrates through clothes (not all guys…), and really just sheer bewilderment when women tell me they like it. It could be my own issues, and I don’t deny that, but I think it’s much easier to turn a switch on to off than it is to turn one off to on…meaning I can see how you can like pornography from the get go and form an addiction or even just like it, but find it would be much harder to acquire a taste for even the mildest and sweetest porn out there, I really have tried..
It is a bit telling that you revise your position when women who look at porn tell you that they have a problem with your view. I am a woman who does sometimes “use” porn (isn’t there a better verb than use? How about “likes to watch”). I do get off on porn, especially sites like Abby Winters.com. (If Britni can mention sites, I hope I can too!)
I want to thank you for taking this new position, and for your great honesty. I just think that you’re so attuned to women that you only hear the truth when a woman says it to you, not a man. I hope that’s not unfair: I’m not a Men’s Rights Activist/Advocate, and I hate what they stand for. I just can’t help but notice that you come to the right position only when prompted by women. At least, judging by your few posts in which you note having changed a position, a woman was always the prompt.
I’m a hardline anti-porn feminist. If my grandparents and generations before theirs can have healthy sexual relationships without porn then so can everyone else. If people who have no access to porn can have healthy sexual relationships then so can everyone else.
My friend once told me, take the profit motive out of porn and it will kill it.
I do however concede that I find a difference between live actor/ess pornography and erotica fiction books. To me, using humans is commodifying them as a product. There’s cartoon pornography that depicts women being raped and killed. This intermingling of sex and violence is absolutely problematic on so many levels.
It makes me wonder if the real battle to be waged lies in women’s rights: Rigid sentences for perpetrators of violence against women; Revolution of our shoddy male-centered public educational system.
I’m not swayed by these arguments that women have presented to you regarding shaming and marginalizing women’s sexuality and their use of pornography. After all, we live in a patriarchal world where women can and do uphold.
Hugo,
“… I cannot in good conscience continue to extrapolate universal truths from my own memories of compulsiveness.”
it’s your ability to question yourself in painful ways that makes your blog so valuable. One thing though -
The mere amount of people doing something doesn’t make that thing ok. If watching porn *were* morally inferior as previously suggested by you, the fact that more women are watching porn now wouldn’t make watching porn any more moral. Likewise, if watching porn were morally superior, and 100% of women decided to never watch a single second of porn while 100% of men would do nothing else with their lives, then that demographic structure wouldn’t make it any less morally superior.
No one should ever base an ethical argument upon a demographic/demoscopic distribution – seriously…
maybe you should reread some Rousseau
Sael,
“My friend once told me, take the profit motive out of porn and it will kill it. ”
I doubt your friend would get rich by betting against YouPorn
I’m certainly not suggesting I’ve changed my position merely in response to statistics. In fact, my concerns remain unchanged, and my personal views on porn are closer to Sael’s than anyone else’s. At the same time, I recognize that the real change that needs to happen is in how we talk about porn — how we frame the arguments, how we find a way to voice our concerns without pathologizing the other side. Saying to everyone (male or female) that when they masturbate to porn they are reifying the patriarchy is unhelpful, I think. Saying to everyone who is anti-porn that they are prudes with issues is also unhelpful.
This is about dialogue and conversation and a way forward, not about throwing in the towel.
Sabs, I assure you that the pain of some of the young men with whom I worked factored into my thinking in this post. Artemisia’s note pushed me over the top, but letters and notes and conversations with many young men and women brought me here.
And yes, Sam, my sources tell me that the hottest thing in porn right now is self-produced porn that folks upload to sharing sites. I have a friend in the adult industry (I live in L.A., after all) who tells me that it’s a very scary time for professional porn as a result.
“Sael Palani
Jul 19th, 2010 at 4:32 pm
I’m a hardline anti-porn feminist. If my grandparents and generations before theirs can have healthy sexual relationships without porn then so can everyone else. If people who have no access to porn can have healthy sexual relationships then so can everyone else.”
How old are you? Porn’s been around since prehistory, for example the Venus of Willendorf.
I doubt anyone would claim you need porn to have a healthy sex life. Or conversely, that your grandparents necessarily *had* a good sex life. It’s like TV, not inherently good or bad.
I’m a feminist, too. Porn is what it is — some of it is supremely sexist and abusive. Some of it isn’t.
SamSeaborn: I suspect that, if all women hate something, and all men love something, or vice versa, it’s usually for a reason. If nothing else, such a situation would indicate a very high degree of othering of the sexes, which is (I believe) always deleterious.
Hugo,
yeah, as for the commodification of people, technology is increasing the amount of re-amateurisation in a lot of industries. Started with Home Depots, but digitization really flipped the switch. Think about what you’re doing to once paid-for feminist journalism with this blog
There’s more conversation, but reduced excludability. I’ve no idea about the adult industry, but I’d reckon that they will soon start loving regulation they previously hated, because the only thing that differentiates small producers from large producers is large producer’s ability to deal with legal requirements…
I’ll likely write more, but I just wanted to throw you a hug.
The tone of this piece is much different than most of your work. It hit me most akin to a piece you wrote about trying to confront your own internalized racial stuff some time ago. I can see the wrestling triggered from the irritated wound of feeling otherwise good people marginalized (by your stance and–given as personal as you feel about your politics–in turn, by you). And in a very complex and gray way around of the most personal of things, their sexuality.
I want to hug where these words came from.
I feel like your mind already understood all these things, but your porn stance–made against so many apologists for misogyny–needed to be strong and unyielding to be rhetorically effective. And women as well as porn that is made ethically fell by the wayside. But sacrifices must be made in rhetoric.
I admire your dedication to further up and in and the courage it took to write this here. But don’t be so hard on yourself. God knows I should take my own advice, so I know how difficult it is. I remember how you discussed BDSM with me and I know you are a Hugo that sees the grays. I don’t forget this fact and don’t you forget either.
*hugs*
I love you Hugo.
Hugo,
I’ve been curious to know whether you consider erotic fiction to be under the porn umbrella. No one really seems to talk about erotic fiction in dialogues on porn. Is this because no one considers it porn? What are your thoughts on it? Healthy, or not?
I’m actually quite concerned about the state of porn. What the average 10 year old is stumbling across on the internet is much harder than what what the typical 10 year old was seeing 20 years ago.
The “girls gone wild” mentality has infected a great deal of youth culture. I’ve seen college age guys in the Wrigleyville part of Chicago berating obviously unenthusiastic women into kissing each other/flashing. If they refuse they are labeled as uptight. Kind of like a reverse slut shaming???
Then there is the ex-girlfriend photo stuff where the jilted lover puts up nude photos. There was a lawsuit about this in Chicago a few years ago. Not much that can be done about it because the person who takes the photograph holds the copyright.
I’m not surprised that women like porn. Without romance novels, fiction publishing in the United States would be in a dismal state. Also there was that study that indicated that a large number of women were aroused by men, women, and bonobo chimps having sex. Clearly, women can respond to visual stimuli of a sexual nature.
Is there beneficial porn? Maybe. A lot of people don’t know how to really please their partner or themselves. I have often thought that it might be helpful for churches to educate their members about such things. It might help reduce the divorce rate.
Traclies!
I’m hesitantly open to the possibility that there could be such a thing as feminist porn, but I’ve never seen any. The websites suggested in the comments above don’t look like they’re doing anything to liberate women. There are some short haircuts, some tattoos, a few more fat cells than one might find in mainstream porn, but the women are still young, blemish-free, and mostly shaven. The Abby Winters site especially bothers me: the free sections, at least, heavily promote the idea that women exist for the sexual pleasure of whoever happens to desire them, without regard to their own feelings on the matter. It’s not about enjoying oneself and then sharing a visual record of that enjoyment with an audience, it’s about a woman’s own enjoyment, or appearance of enjoyment, and the entirety of her body and sexuality, being constructed for and served to an anonymous viewer. “Play with me!” one naked woman invites the camera. A promotional blurb praises the “original hot babes.” The women are taken apart into pieces -”close-up,” “anus”- so we can think of them as body parts instead of as people. Another section displays the “models you’ll get access to,” suggesting it’s the models themselves a subscriber can get “access” to, not the pictures and videos of them.
The “girl next door” fetish is still a fetish. That is, it still functions on the idea that women are objects meant to be used for sex. The addition of freckles or tan lines or even fat cells to the dehumanized image does not make it any less objectifying. If the consent of the models and occasionally catering to said fetish is enough to make porn “feminist,” Playboy is equally feminist.
As long as porn offers a vision of the world in which women perform sexual acts for some reason other than their own enjoyment, it is hindering the liberation of women as a class. I’m not sure, however, that “amateur” porn is a sign of change for the better. Instead of showing that women who do not strive to look like porn stars, and sex acts done with mutual pleasure and respect, can break into the traditional porn marketplace, much of it seems to show that the standards of beauty and behavior from mainstream porn have infiltrated the world outside.
We should be able to analyze porn as a cultural phenomenon without casting judgment on one another as whole persons, or feeling judged as whole persons when something we like is criticized. We should be able to accept that “I like it” is not sufficient ethical justification for anything and to have discussions that go beyond that. Many people are anti-porn despite finding it arousing. From the anti-porn side, we should be able to entertain the notion that some women really do find sexual confidence in porn, and that much of the feminist anti-porn discourse has excluded women who enjoy watching porn and thus reinforced harmful stereotypes.
A couple of additions to my comment currently in moderation:
-It’s the “for you” quality of most porn that I take issue with. Since porn is an industry that needs to please customers to profit, this quality isn’t likely to go away anytime soon, but there must be at least some porn (or erotica) out there in which the participants choose their actions based solely on what they enjoy rather than on what will please audiences.
-I’m assuming a difference between acting feminist (that is, actively working for women’s liberation) and just not feeling personally oppressed. An anti-feminist message is an anti-feminist message whether the person creating and distributing it is in other respects a feminist or not.
I really have come to feel, in the digital age, that individuals should own their image rather than the copyright falling by default on the photographer. I think that single legal change would do a lot of good.
Emily: the ability of one to control his or her online presence is becoming a major topic of academic interest. In a graduate class on the sociology of new media, we discussed that particular topic in depth. And there are a lot of layers to the issue of one’s online presence and image.
My research project for that class, interestingly enough, looked at women and online porn. I found a couple of interesting things. For example, the most popular porn for women in their late teens and early twenties is animated porn with *male on male* action, and not the romantic, gentle stuff either. I have a few theories of why, but I will leave that to those far more knowledgeable about such things to figure out.
And here is a head-scratcher; there is a very fast growing fetish market that caters to Evangelical women. There are online magazines, books and online communities dedicated to “spiritual domestic discipline†which eroticize and spiritualize domestic violence, sexual harassment and some sadistic sexual practices.
My point is, what we think we know about the kind of porn women want and watch may be very different from what is actually happening. And the porn we assume might be for one group (gay men) might actually be heavily consumed by another group (young women). And groups we assume would sooner do home-root-canals than engage in porn, feel righteous even as they create an entire fetish sub-culture.
The bottom line is that all my research showed is that I know squat – we all know squat – about this topic. I concluded that some wise and enterprising researcher (read: not me) really should do some quality research on this.
Aishlin, I think that this is very helpful:
We should be able to accept that “I like it†is not sufficient ethical justification for anything and to have discussions that go beyond that. Many people are anti-porn despite finding it arousing. From the anti-porn side, we should be able to entertain the notion that some women really do find sexual confidence in porn, and that much of the feminist anti-porn discourse has excluded women who enjoy watching porn and thus reinforced harmful stereotypes.
Thank you for that.
One of the most hurtful things about much of the anti-porn rhetoric is that it has at its root heteronormativity. Even in this discussion, what has been considered the only legitimate form of heterosexual sex is that which is in keeping with the dominant norm. We seem to believe that the only sex which is non-exploitive and non-abusive, is our culture’s heteronormative idealized norm: sex that is “connected†and relationship-building, arises spontaneously out of emotional intimacy, is mutually satisfactory, and it occurs in a relationship of equal libidos and compatible turn-ons. It doesn’t take into account any dysfunctions, or lack of optimal functioning, or any human foibles like the occasional harmless fetish. Legitimizing only one form of sex perpetuates society’s stigmatization of those who have a kink or a dysfunction.
It’s really interesting that you have rethought your position, but I find it disturbing that for whatever reason, it took an awareness of female consumership, and thus, approval to do it.
As for Robert Jenson, I have never read a more wounding piece of writing. I’m having trouble remembering just what was in it because of the sheet rage it made me feel, but nothing made me step back and think about weather feminism was really a movement that I could get behind, if it was a movement that Mr. Jenson was a part of. It’s mostly how he talks about being a man (male?) like we’re some repugnant sub-species.
Ooh, can I play?
Birth control is bad: If my grandparents and generations before theirs can have healthy sexual relationships without porn than so can everyone else. If people who have no access to porn can have healthy sexual relationships then so can everyone else.
Sex toys are bad: If my grandparents and generations before theirs can have healthy sexual relationships without sex toys than so can everyone else. If people who have no access to sex toys can have healthy sexual relationships then so can everyone else.
Women’s equality: If my grandparents and generations before theirs can have healthy sexual relationships without women’s equality than so can everyone else. If people who have no access to women’s equality can have healthy sexual relationships then so can everyone else.
Hm, paste didn’t take in that first paragraph. But you get the idea. “My grandparents didn’t _________ and they turned out fine” and “people who don’t have _________ turn out fine” is not much more than “I don’t like it, so you shouldn’t either” with a healthy sprinkle of Get Off My Lawn.
“We should be able to accept that “I like it†is not sufficient ethical justification for anything and to have discussions that go beyond that.”
I agree with this mostly, but what about people who like performing in porn? Is “I like it” justification for them? After all, all the feminists I’ve known are ok with “I like it” as a justification for sexual behavior as long as any partners involved are also enthusiastic.
“much of the feminist anti-porn discourse has excluded women who enjoy watching porn and thus reinforced harmful stereotypes.”
Worse than that, most of the feminist anti-porn rhetoric, especially second-wave, has excluded women who make a living off porn or who have made a pornographic video or picture shoot at some point strictly as amateurs. The only book I’ve read is “XXX: A Woman’s Right to Pornography” by McElroy. I do not agree with much of her politics outisde of the book, but the voices of women interviewed for the book really struck a chord with me. Can anyone recommend a book, magazine article, or scholarly work that interviews workers in pornography that comes to an anti-porn conclusion?
Hi FormerWildchild. I agree with your comments regarding heteronormative critiques, but would add mononormative (i.e. monogamous normative) to that.
In regards your research project, have you seen this article? http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-07-18/the-lesbians-who-love-male-gay-porn/
mythago beat me to my snark.
Also, taking the profit motive out of porn wouldn’t even begin to kill it. There are entire sites that do nothing but allow people to post naughty pictures of themselves and look at other people’s similar auto-naughty pictures.
Porn, in the largest sense, is never going away. Even after the revolution, when all of the disgusting pigs in mainstream porn production have been sent to the reeducation camps and gender equality is achieved, people will still be writing, drawing, photographing, and filming each other being sexual, having sex.
This is not to deny the misogyny that is endemic to porn, especially commercial, mainstream porn. But even if we managed to remove the misogyny from our culture, we’ll just end up with non-misogynistic porn, not no porn at all.
“But even if we managed to remove the misogyny from our culture, we’ll just end up with non-misogynistic porn, not no porn at all.”
What would that kind of porn look like? Is it possible to imagine that kind of porn, given the patriarchal norms we have all lived under for so long? I can’t honestly come to a conclusion of whether or not I would consume that type of porn, as I’m not against sex, I’m against using people as products to drive sales.
Which kind of leads me to an off-note and apology. I apologize if it seems I ignore the repercussions of men in the industry, but I would have to say it’s subconscious influence perpetrated by gender norms in which men are considered to like sex, period; with no regrets. So I apologize in my failing to realize that no matter how small the minority or how less reported the damage on males is, that I too have succumbed to gender roles to an extent. I think it’s important to take notes on how influential gender norms actually are…nobody is above influence, but awareness of that influence is important to change.
Thank you so much for writing this post.
I’ve long been sad at the fierce divide between anti-porn and porn-positive feminists, since it seems to me that there’s so much common ground and so many areas of grey in which we could all work together. We share a goal of liberation from oppressive and sexist sexual mores, and that seems more important to me than the (very different) ways we see to get there. The amount of vitriol that flies back and forth is discouraging.
I personally lean more towards the pro-porn side of things, but that’s never been a black-and-white thing for me. A majority of porn I’ve encountered is horrifyingly sexist and I can see the ways that it’s affected young people’s sex lives. Especially in a country with abysmal sex education and easy internet access to porn, that’s where young people are learning how to do sex. Makelovenotporn is a fun and cheeky but very spot-on site that points out some of the myths I’ve personally encountered people believing because of porn.
That all said, I have definitely encountered some porn that feels transformative and feminist. The sites Britni listed are certainly a good start. I would add Erika Lust’s work to that, and for those who don’t want to look at explicit material, she’s done some good writing about what she does. Tony Comstock, too, has some beautiful films showing sex between real-life partners. (I linked to his blog, so link is non-explicit and SFW.) And I’ve spoken with and read writing from other porn stars who love what they do and for whom the work is a part of their sexuality and self expression.
I think it’s very possible to voice and act on serious concerns about pornography without writing off (live action) sexually explicit material entirely. And I think it’s very exciting to see more people step into that middle and embrace the grey. Thank you for doing that with this post, and for honoring the perspectives of those of us who’ve had positive experiences with porn.
“Hi FormerWildchild. I agree with your comments regarding heteronormative critiques, but would add mononormative (i.e. monogamous normative) to that.
In regards your research project, have you seen this article? http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-07-18/the-lesbians-who-love-male-gay-porn/”
I liked the article, but I’d also like to recommend the Louis Theroux “Weird Weekend” episode in which he spends some time in the porn industry. Anyone who thinks there is no exploitation in gay pornography is not familiar with the “gay for pay” phenomenon. One look at the face of the “gay for pay” actor interviewed by Theroux is enough to convince anyone that gay porn is often exploitative, too. To assume that gay porn actors are not exploited because the male-domination-of-women phenomenon is absent betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of capitalism and, when couched in feminist language, implies a half-assed or at least half-baked feminism.
A gentleman’s gentleman, know that I am not accusing you of this nor assuming that your views are the same as the women interviewed for the article!
hrrrm, i’m very much pro-porn, but am very anti-porn industry. sexy images-whoohoo, dirty vids-yum.
treating and under-compensating sex workers-boo. people who take advantage of trusting partners-double boo. people who believe porn is accurate depiction of sexuality-deluuuuusional.
that aside, i think most people are unable to separate the two and blame everything as a whole.
the lack of a REAL sex education american culture offers to young people who are coming into their sexuality is what i believe helps propagates the misogynistic trends commonly found in mainstream porn-which i agree, is disturbing.
lastly, i think being able to be more realistic and flexible about what sex, romantic love and relationships is and not this rigid state one finds in storybooks and pushes on others is a point more of us need to be thinking about.
“I’m against using people as products to drive sales”
I think I understand what you are saying, but all performers/entertainers use their bodies as “products” to drive sales. A singer uses her voice, an athlete uses his body, and actors use their bodies and imaginations to create characters, some of which use costumes and scripts, and some don’t. Do you have a problem with actors in G rated movies? In PG rated movies? In R rated movies?
The difference is the sex, and because that X rated “performance” both takes from cultural tropes as well as adds to them, it becomes problematic. But can you have a problem with the performance and not the performer, or the performative element?
That is where I have landed. There are some performances (even “amateurs” are still offering performances. Whenever a camera is on there is a performance) that I find reprehensible and some I find intriguing. Some are well done, some are not. All movies try to engage the emotions of the viewer, but it gets very messy when the emotion the performance is trying to engage with is lust.
whtewashedasiangairl;
“treating and under-compensating sex workers-boo. people who take advantage of trusting partners-double boo. people who believe porn is accurate depiction of sexuality-deluuuuusional.
that aside, i think most people are unable to separate the two and blame everything as a whole.
the lack of a REAL sex education american culture offers to young people who are coming into their sexuality is what i believe helps propagates the misogynistic trends commonly found in mainstream porn-which i agree, is disturbing.
lastly, i think being able to be more realistic and flexible about what sex, romantic love and relationships is and not this rigid state one finds in storybooks and pushes on others is a point more of us need to be thinking about.”
Absolutely!
In regard to pornographic literature, which seems to slip under the radar here, the so called ‘romance’ novel industry is almost entirely driven by the female consumer. Of the litle I’ve read from this genre there seems to be little doubt that a goodly amount of it would be considered as at least ‘soft’ porn if it appeared in a male oriented periodical, and many of these stories are unapologetically porn by any definition. And trust me, whether or not these stories are written for women by women, the content can be just as arousing for men as anything written by a man. So is this type of porn any more or less inherently exploitative of women, or men, than the average Playboy story is?
Aishlin:
“…..but the women are still young, blemish-free, and mostly shaven.”
I’d like to hear from any lesbians (or bisexuals) on this subject. Are women in lesbian/bisexual porn (and I’m making a huge assumption that it exists), shaved or tattood or always long or short haired or young and blemish free or older and wearing all their blemishes? Is shaving genitalia purely a male driven practice that only men expect from their sex partners?
I think that i should qualify the last paragraph.
I’m not talking about the (very) thinly veiled lesbian porn commonly seen that is really nothing more than male fantasies of women sexing each other up, but rather lesbian porn made by lesbians for lesbians. That is if such a thing exists.
“I’m against using people as products to drive salesâ€
“I think I understand what you are saying, but all performers/entertainers use their bodies as “products†to drive sales. A singer uses her voice, an athlete uses his body, and actors use their bodies and imaginations to create characters, some of which use costumes and scripts, and some don’t. Do you have a problem with actors in G rated movies? In PG rated movies? In R rated movies?”
Actually, I don’t buy much into hollywood…I don’t care much for movies in the sense that I’m going to see a movie to see a specific actor or actress. I’m not that much into movies at all…I don’t watch sports, I’d rather play them, as for singing I’d call a voice more of a talent than a physical attribute. Overall, the sex muddles things…Everyday people can relate to sex, and that relation may lead to normalization in life. In other words there is a greater capacity for people to find porn real as opposed to actors acting a scene in a movie. My statement wasn’t as clear as I would have liked it to be…I probably should have said my problem is when people are reduced to body parts to drive sales (dehumanization).
Pounding Sand:it exists. (It would be very odd if there were a type of porn that didn’t exist.) It’s not mainstream and not as readily available because the larger porn industry is geared towards straight men, and they don’t have the same resources to deal with harassment, obscenity prosecutions and so on, but it’s out there. Completely NSFW link: http://www.fatalemedia.com/ (because, sadly, Sir Media’s is offline). There are all kinds of ‘looks’ but it definitely trends away from the straight/long-haired/long-fingernails/ultrafemme look popular in “lesbian” porn made for men.