My friend Alison told me a story the other day about her husband and her eight year-old daughter. While on a family camping trip over the long Fourth of July weekend, little Jade asked her parents, “Why do people have sex?”
Alison and Cooper were shocked. Like so many parents, they weren’t ready for the question; even those moms and dads who prepare themselves well to talk about the subject get thrown off by the timing or wording of these first queries about sex. And as Alison told me, she and Cooper expected to have the “sex talk” with Jade when she was ten or eleven at the earliest. Not eight.
Before Alison could say anything, her husband blurted out. “People have sex because it feels good.”
“Oh”, Jade said, and went back to eating dinner, uninterested in continuing the conversation.
Cooper was beside himself, telling Alison that he felt like an idiot for giving their daughter that answer. “I don’t know what I was thinking; it was the first thing that came into my head”, he said. His wife reassured him that they could have a more detailed conversation with Jade when she was a little bit older, but for now the answer was honest and fine. Cooper wasn’t convinced, and second-guessed himself for the rest of the family camping trip.
As I told Allie yesterday, her husband didn’t get it wrong at all. In fact, from a developmental standpoint, he gave the best one-sentence answer he could possibly have given. “Give him a high-five from me”, I said, “Coop nailed it.”
So many adults are fearful that telling kids that sex is pleasurable will simply encourage young people to have it before they are physically and emotionally ready for the consequences. Better, they imagine, to emphasize that it’s important to wait and to stress the risks. But as it turns out, centering pleasure is a great way to minimize the chances that a teen will be pressured into doing something that they don’t want to do.
When we tell girls that sex is something people do when they love each other, it sets them up to believe that sex is sacrificial. So when Jassie falls in love with Bobby, and Bobby pushes for intercourse, she’s conditioned to focus on “giving it up” for him rather than on thinking about what feels good for her. The more she’s taught that her pleasure matters, the less likely she’ll be coerced into going farther than her body is ready to go. “It’s supposed to feel good”, she may remember, “and right now, being rushed and pawed doesn’t feel good. So I want to stop.” Centering pleasure gives young women a power that centering love doesn’t.
The same is true with boys. When we teach them that sex is about feeling good, we remind them that it isn’t about “losing it.” We think of adolescent boys as hormone-addled horndogs, and many of them are. (There are some pretty damn horny teenage girls too, though we’re less comfortable acknowledging that.) But what drives so many boys to focus on having heterosexual intercourse isn’t the pursuit of pleasure for either themselves or their partners. It’s the longing to “become a man” or to “score” in a competition that’s really about winning praise and validation from other men. Pleasure becomes less important than being a “stud” in other boys’ eyes. That’s not a lot of fun.
So Cooper got it exactly right. While there are other reasons why people have sex, the desire to give and share pleasure is perhaps the most basic. And the more we center pleasure in our discussions with children, the more we equip them to say no to what hurts, what’s coerced, and what’s unwanted. And the more we empower them to say “yes” only to what feels good.
That’s the best foundation for good sex education I know.
Very good point, Hugo, thanks–I had never thought about it that way.
Re: “Give him a high-five from me”, I said, “Coop nailed it.”
Oh, I see.
In Mr. Schwyzer’s world, the sexual act is no more meaningful, and no more elevated, and no more sacred than doing a line of coke in a nightclub restroom. (And I suppose best of all would be doing coke WHILE having sex, which makes it unsurprising why so many California cultural liberals like to mix the two).
What a pity that a man like this is in charge of shaping the minds of American youth.
shaping the minds of american youth? sounds like a call to drink hemlock to me. the alternative method is almost a pure reflection of social repression.
how one can read the above and wring out the pleasure of sex and the pleasure of cocaine is an idiotic, ideological rationalization not for the weak of heart.
It sounds like Cooper gave an excellent answer, for exactly the reasons you state. (Bonus points for giving a normal conversational answer to the question she asked, instead of sitting the kid down for a big, awkward “talk”.)
For Hector’s prurient amusement, here are some other horrible, hedonistic things I do because they feel good:
* Hiking in the mountains
* Sharing a homemade dinner with friends and family
* Reading out loud to my husband
* Petting the neighbour’s cat. (This is not a euphemism; the cat is just a friendly fuzzy animal that purrs, and his company makes me feel good.)
@Rae: Oh, you’re “petting” the “cat”, are you? Naughty. And “hiking” in the “mountains”… okay I’ll stop now.
Nothing really to add to this. I always suspected the correct answer was “because it’s fun”, but finally here is the perfect explanation as to why it is the correct answer.
@Hector_St_Clare:
really? what planet do you live on? far too many girls are pressured to have sex before they are ready exactly for the reasons hugo stated – it’s a sacrifice they make in the name of love. well, not for me. i have sex with partners because it’s fun; there are a whole lot of other reasons, but i can guarantee you that i walk if the sex is not fun.
my mom always told me that people had sex because it IS enjoyable, but there are also other reasons involved. we discussed those reasons further as i got older. as such, Cooper gave the perfect answer to an 8 year old, because to them, they do a ton of stuff because it’s fun.
it’s time to crawl out from under that puritanical rock you’re living under and try embracing a more global view of healthy sexual relationships.
Ahhh, Hector, with every post, my image of you, swathed head to toe in cilice while self-flagellating with a cat o’ nine tails each time a happy thought enters your mind all the while keeping an eye to the window for the heretical pursuits of your neighbors, is reinforced.
Enjoy yourself. Or is that a sin?
You don’t need to post that last comment, Hugo, if it was overboard.
I admit to getting a bit worked up over the judgmental nature of others.
Excellent post and very much in line with the conversations I have with worried parents about how to have “that” talk.
YES! Love this post. Because (unfortunately) we do constantly need to share the message of pleasure and boundaries, especially for girls.
Love this post! Hector, I’m dedicating my next orgasm to you.
I must be hungry all I can think of reading Hector’s comment is that non sequitur rhymes with fajita.
We used to get better trolls around here, dammit.
Alexa,
Excuse me. I didn’t originate this outrageous idea of ‘sex is no better then coke’. Mr. Schwyzer said that in his view, people have sex b/c it feels good. My natural rejoinder to that is, if that is the case, then just what is the moral difference between doing coke and having sex. And I further commented that this probably explains why the chattering classes in Santa Monica and the Upper West Side seem to habitually mix drugs and sex.
The only outrageous person here is the owner of this blog.
(And I suppose best of all would be doing coke WHILE having sex, which makes it unsurprising why so many California cultural liberals like to mix the two).
I dunno. I’m a non-coke-user, so forgive my ignorance, but I think even California cultural liberals would find it difficult to do a line of coke in a nightclub restroom while having sex. I mean, wouldn’t all the bouncing make it more likely they would spill the coke? But hey…since Hector’s the expert, perhaps he can enlighten us. (I’m a midwestern cultural liberal. We aren’t known for having a taste–or budget–for coke, and we have our raunchy nightclub sex out in the parking lot, like civilized people.)
Ok, so I’m wondering how this would help to prevent sexual abuse/assault. A lot of sexual predators make damn sure to make what they’re doing feel physically good – this helps them to control and confuse their victims. So, how does saying “we have sex because it feels good” help our kids when an abuser is saying “but I know this makes you feel good”?
I do really like this model – I think it’s so important to center pleasure when teaching our kids about sexuality, and I do think that would help protect young women from clumsy but perhaps not predatory teenage boys who are trying to “score” but are oblivious to their partners’ needs. I’m just hoping that you also have some ideas on how to relate this model more to protection from sexual predators, not just from peer pressure.
If Hugo is so outrageous, well, then, why don’t you hang out somewhere where you won’t be so outraged?
He didn’t say one blasted thing about coke. That was your addition.
Since I am asexual and drug-free, I will leave it to someone else here to explain all the moral/ethical differences between a physical activity that feels good and can induce affection between people, and an addictive drug that feels good and can induce divisiveness, if only because it becomes more important than anything else. I suspect cocaine might lower inhibitions and cause some folks to get sexual who otherwise wouldn’t mean to, and that’s why they seem to be related in some venues. But I’d imagine that Hugo’s readers pretty much have the drug thing under control, or else they’d not be able to post coherently.
Admitting that something is pleasurable, even while it can bring problems, seems better than just framing it in terms of a duty/sacrifice one has to make, or a thing one does to show off. If the prospect of it does not bring pleasure, the young person can have a bit more mental ammo for refusing to get mixed up in it. Keeping the right to pleasure for oneself in mind can serve as a defense against pressure to give in to please someone else, or “score” to impress someone else. It can also help one find other things to do to get that pleasure, that won’t have the danger of disease, pregnancy, injury, heartbreak, etc.
Speaking of pressure, who is pressuring you to stay here reading things that upset you so?
@ Hector_St_Clare: You ask what the moral difference is between the sex act and doing cocaine, so I’ll answer that there is none, in the acts themselves.
When the sex act becomes an addiction, when it does harm to the participants or to those they claim to love, when it is purely a selfish indulgence, it is no better than feeding a drug habit.
When the sex act is one of mutual pleasure, when it expresses affection, when it brings exaltation and ecstasy to those involved, then it is something more and better than what Heinlein called the slippery friction between two bodies. Similarly, while I have no personal knowledge of the ceremonial use of drugs other than alcohol, I do know that a beer shared with a friend is better than drinking alone, and that many Christians find closeness to God in eating a bit of bread and drinking a sip of wine.
Get off your high horse, Hector. There are better rides to be had.
Pirie Kaufman and Angiportus,
Sigh. You’re both missing the point. My analogy of sex and coke is a ‘reduction to absurdity’ of Mr. Schwyzer’s argument that the purpose of sex is pleasure. I am saying, that IF the purpose of sex is merely pleaseure, THEN sex is inherently no better then coke. Obviously, I don’t believe that the purpose of sex is nothing more then pleasure, and I also don’t believe that sex is no better then snorting coke. My point is that IF one believes what Mr. Schwyzer claims to believe, THEN one can no longer make a principlied intellectual argument against the snorting of coke.
Re: But I’d imagine that Hugo’s readers pretty much have the drug thing under control, or else they’d not be able to post coherently.
According to people I know, most of the New York financier crowd appears to recreationally use coke while making lots of money, so that would be a wrong assumption.
@Hector: Strawman fallacy. Hugo never argues that the purpose of sex is merely pleasure. But that pleasure is a primary purpose of sex for most people. Also, cocaine is not a very good analogy for sex because while they both have certain risks, cocaine is far more dangerous and addictive. Based on that alone, sex and cocaine are not morally equivalent, even if there’s some overlap in the reasons people use cocaine and have sex.
Hector: I don’t think Hugo is actually saying it’s no more nuanced thyan that; he just doesn’t think it’s necessary or practical to explain that nuance to an eight-year-old.
(I’ll just skip the debate about coke…)
I’m all for sex-positive explanations such as “it feels good”, because it does sounds better than something like “because everyone does it” or “because it’s what love is all about”. However, I wish people would be more aware that “it feels good” for most people, not all.
What if Jassie tries sex a few times and it still doesn’t feel good? It’s probably unlikely, but if that happens, she’s going to think something’s wrong with her.
But as you surely know, everyone enjoys (or doesn’t) sex in their own way. For some it feels good, for others it feels even magical… and for some it just doesn’t feel like much at all and that should be okay too. It ultimately depends on the individual. “It feels good” might be more optimistic than most other excuses that people have for sex, but it’s still a small step away from complete sexual freedom.
Cocaine is nature’s way of telling you that you are making too much money.
If Hugo is so outrageous, well, then, why don’t you hang out somewhere where you won’t be so outraged?
Probably because outrage is the only thing Hector is allowed to enjoy.
Good one!
–And good point, Unspatted, and so I expect that The Talk will happen in many installments as the kids grows, and the nuances worked in. You don’t have to get it all in one session.
Yes, let me be clear — this is a start, not an end. There’s much more to come, obviously. This is a ground floor, not a roof.
Ah, here’s the post re: Hector.
http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2009/06/just-say-no.html
Fred Clark brings the awesome.
Hector is apparently a brilliant troll because he has managed to make most of this thread about his weird coke analogy and I cannot help but add one more comment about the sheer stupidity of the analogy. If my kid asks me, why do people go swimming? and I answer “because it feels good” then I can’t have a principled objection to doing coke because I told my kid swimming is fun? It makes no sense whatsoever.
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why do people bother thinking sex is sacred
seriously it’s just sex who cares at all
of course this is coming from someone who has never had it so whatever.
People feel they have to make a fuss over something, and that is handy. Also, of course, it feels good…
I was hoping to see more discussion of Mariella’s response! Instead, we’ve gotten distracted by all the coke talk…
Perhaps the toughest adversary to deal with is the one who takes pleasure in what they’re doing, like the sexual predator in Mariella’s narrative. Such a person will not listen to reason, and not be dissauded by appeals to morality, or even emotions. This is your classic sociopath, and right now we are pitifully inept in defending against them (though we are getting better at spotting them).
Oh, and La Lubu: I think you first do the coke, and then have sex. It apparently does wonders for heightening the experience. But doing it in a filthy, stinky, vomit-and-urine-soaked nightclub restroom would be a total turn-off.
Although I also have to wonder: since falling asleep right after coming is such a big complaint, wouldn’t a bit of coke snorted right after orgasm nip that little problem in the bud?
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