At Role/Reboot today, I’m writing about Myths of Male Weakness and the Three Date Rule. Excerpt:
I was talking to a friend of mine recently about her dating life. “Joanna” is 33, single, straight, and interested in—eventually—getting married and having children. It’s not, as she says a “ticking clock thing”; rather, she’s clear that at this age, she’s done having casual relationships with men that drift for months and years. She wants to (as my evangelical friends put it) date “intentionally”—that is, with the explicit intention of moving toward marriage. If a guy isn’t marriage material, or has no interest in getting married—or is planning on waiting until he’s struck by divine certainty—Joanna wants to know sooner rather than later so that she can move on.
Joanna recently asked me a question:
“When is it best to bring up what my goals are? If I say—on our first coffee date—that I’m looking to get married, I’m worried I’ll scare most men away. On the other hand, I don’t want to wait indefinitely. If a guy is very clear that marriage and children are off the table for the next few years, I want to move along before I get too invested. So when’s the right time to bring it up?”
In answering Joanna’s question, I mentioned Tom Leykis. Leykis, a popular shock jock in Los Angeles for years, dispensed love and sex advice to a largely male audience. He was famous for his three-date rule: “If a woman won’t have sex with you after three dates,” Leykis opined, “dump her. She’s not worth investing any more time in.”
I think there’s a far more helpful version of the “three date rule”: By the third date with a prospective partner, one ought to feel free to initiate the “what are you looking for in a relationship” conversation. If the initial answer is a bit evasive, something along the lines of “let’s just go slow and see how things develop,” it’s not too soon for someone in Joanna’s position to explain what it is that she wants. If the other person flinches at this point, that’s a fairly definitive sign that your goals are unlikely to be mutual.
Hugo,
Don’t think that we don’t notice what a genius you are.
Warren Farrell writes an insightful book about “The Myth of Male Power”, and you talk about the Myth of Male Weakness.
Some guy (Leykis) writes about the 3-date rule with regard to sex, and you totally turn the tables by telling women that he better damn well know what his intentions are by the third date!
Pure genius! The opposite-ville thing. Normal dullards would never conceive of such a wonderful thing as an instructor / professor at a major community college!
And what it does is make young girls 18-20, you know, your constituency, think that you are really smart. And maybe your master, Amanda Marcotte, will let you live another day before her thumbs down.
Anyway, keep up the good work!
By the way, I was an instructor at night at a community college when I was 23 years old (teaching calculus). I had a day job as an engineer. I never would have dreamed of calling myself a “professor” back then.
Oh, I forgot.
Men only want the “one thing” – SEX! and women only want to get married and have babies and have the man support her for ever and ever. Men are evil trying to trick women into having sex, and women are innocent babes who just want to get a man to support her for the rest of her life (is that asking too much??).
That’s kind of what Hugo is assuming here. In fact, read through Hugo’s bullshit once again with what I said in mind.
Now what if there are one or two women in the world who actually have *moral agency* – who have sex because they want to have sex and find it fun – or who take responsibility for their own actions in this world. How does Hugo’s protectionism fit in?
Who cares, as long as Hugo impresses young girls aged 17-20.
Shame about your calculus students, since it’s pretty clear their “professor” failed logic.
:=/
Hugo writes:
“By the third date with a prospective partner, one ought to feel free to initiate the “what are you looking for in a relationship” conversation.”
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He sets it up with advice for men from Leykis – about sex.
Then he answers a woman with the quote above in part.
It sounds too much like Hugo trying to turn the tables again – men only want sex, so I’m going to make advice for that sound stupid, while I simultaneously get kudos from women (especially young women!) for saying they can do the same thing but with regard to relationships.
Hugo is very definitely assuming what I stated. Frankly, a man who started pressing a woman about what the relationship is going to be – even after three dates – would come across as being a bit creepy to me. But Hugo thinks it’s fine for women, because women have no moral agency and never do anything wrong.
Hugo follows this pattern over and over and over again. That’s his shtik. Men have responsibilites (that they don’t really meet, according to Hugo), and women have rights (that they don’t get to exercise enough, according to Hugo). Absolutely transparent.
“By the third date with a prospective partner, one ought to feel free to initiate the “what are you looking for in a relationship” conversation.”
The key point here isn’t necessarily date #3 (or #2 or #4 or #100) but the words “feel free to initiate.”
Basically, are the two of you clicking? Do you feel comfortable with each other? Does it feel like you’re both on the same wavelength, not in terms or relationship goals necessarily, but in terms of general compatability? Can emotional intimacy be established? Do you like each other?
I’d like to think such things come up naturally and, in Hugo’s words, freely, if this is the case.
You’re an engineer. Not to stereotype (okay yes, I’m stereotyping) , but that explains A LOT.
Hugo, I wish you could print excerpts from that beautiful chapter you and Carré Otis wrote in “Beauty Disrupted” where she describes meeting and dating her husband Matthew. PLEASE tell me that man has a single brother. The emotional intimacy between them, and their journey toward physical intimacy, is something more people need to read.
I’ve been in discussions where other versions of this have come up, and consensus often is that the 3rd date is the time for important things. It could be naming what you really want out of a relationship, as with this woman who’s serious about getting married. Or it could be “I’ve got herpes”. Or perhaps admitting that a person has a criminal record. Or anything momentous that needs to come out into the open. Not necessarily fatal to the relationship, but something important enough that it would be dishonest to keep it secret much longer.
The point would be that if these things are said earlier, it would be TMI, blurting out personal secrets in front of a stranger. If it comes later, then the listener may feel that they’ve been led into emotional blackmail, where they’d feel pressured to stay in the relationship because they’ve come too far to leave. It’s a judgment call, but “third date” seems right for a lot of things. It’s a point at which you’ve got enough trust to share important information, but there’s still an aspect of the whole thing being provisional, and either party can still say “Sorry, but I need to get out”.
“You’re an engineer.”
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No I’m not. I was an engineer when I was 23 years old, many decades ago.
Not to stereotype, but I notice far less false assumptions and illogical thought patterns among engineers than among people on this board.
Off topic, I apologize, and if you don’t want to answer I understand, but I’m curious: why did you give up engineering? So young?
I don’t think this post is assuming all women want marriage and men want sex…he is describing one specific women who DOES want to get married, which is a valid and legitimate goal in dating though not the only one. Given that many men who are dating aren’t interested in marriage, regardless of whether all they want is sex, expressing her desire to move towards marriage on the third date seems very reasonable. But I guess, given that my age falls between 17 and 20 and I’m a “girl”, I’m just gullible and stupid and my opinion can’t be taken seriously.
“But I guess, given that my age falls between 17 and 20 and I’m a “girl”, I’m just gullible and stupid and my opinion can’t be taken seriously.”
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No, I’m sure that you have far more life experience than much older people.
Or Hugo will whisper that to you, anyway.
“No, I’m sure that you have far more life experience than much older people.” Its obviously not the case that I have “far more life experience than much older people” and would never claim that my opinions are more valid, or even as developed as those with more life experience than I have. I was only responding to your earlier post: “who cares as long as Hugo impresses girls aged 17-20″ by suggesting that people of my age group can also have legitimate and intelligent beliefs. Maybe my views will change as I gain more life experience. In the meantime, I am open to listening to the arguments of those with more life experience, which is why I read and considered your previous post before responding to it.
Sarah, regardless of life experience, you certainly sound more thoughtful about your opinions and how you express them than some “much older people” I’ve known.
I’m sure you’ve figured this out already, but Reality and a few others have an axe to grind with the good Professor (including his use of the honorific). They weigh in on nearly every post attempting to twist it around to fit their “reality.”
You need to catch up with technology.
The best time to have the “what are you looking for in a relationship” conversation if BEFORE you meet. Modern dating should always have a technological assist. Even if your date does not find you on a singles web profile, you should have a profile, and mention it on the first date. You can be certain that your partner will check, and react accordingly.
The biggest enemy of honest communication is awkwardness. Profiles overcome this. Its a win/win.
Good point, Anthony, but I don’t know if that’s reality.
Men are obvious.
Women – not so much. They don’t want to put up front what they really want. And I get it – because “I want to bind you to paying for me for the rest of my life, no matter what I do” just doesn’t hit men the right way. I guess it’s just because men are immature and don’t want commitment.
Right, Hugo?
Dear Hugo, don’t be deceived, even we females over the age of 20 hang off your every word and desire for you to turn the phrases of the ‘opposing side’ to validate our baby-needing ways. It’s catchy, and makes you seem hip to the culture! Continue being the genius you are!
Dear Sarah, you are absolutely correct, young women not only can have intelligently constructed ideas and convictions, but should, just as young men should.
Great post, Hugo. It’d be great to see a follow-up post on whether the ‘three date rule’ has in fact proven to be a useful tool in determining when is most appropriate to bring up big conversation pieces like relational intentions and the like.